Episode Summary

In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – – Jeff Lieber of TurnKey Product Management – talks about how a $15K Investment Launched an E-commerce Career, also more information about his life’s journey. #JeffLieber #TurnKeyProductManagement

About Jeff Liber of TurnKey Product Management – TurnKey Product Management helps companies quickly grow their sales on Amazon and save them time so you can do what you love by offering the following. Whether you’re selling $20k/month or $200k/month, TurnKey will help you scale.

Find the Full Episode Below

Yoni Mazor 0:06
Everybody welcome to another episode of prime talk today I have a special guest that I’m having Jeff Lieber. Jeff is the founder of turnkey product management, which is a leading Amazon Marketplace and marketing agency. So uh, Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Lieber 0:20
Hey, thank you so much for having me good to connect again.

Yoni Mazor 0:22
Yeah, my pleasure. You know, good to see you. As you know, you know, a couple of times in the past, but in today’s episode, we’re gonna dive into your story. We’re gonna go even deeper, you’re gonna you know, it’s gonna be the story of Jeff Lieber, you’re gonna share with us everything? Where are you? Where are you from? Where’d you grow up? You know how you began your professional career station to station until you reached where you are today in the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let’s jump right into it.

Jeff Lieber 0:47
Yeah, sounds good, man. Yeah, I’ve never done a podcast quite like this always just talking about the nuts and bolts of Amazon. So I’m kind of excited and a little nervous to share the personal side, I guess.

Yoni Mazor 0:58
As long as you know, your story, no reason to be nervous. I get it. Right.

Jeff Lieber 1:03
Yeah, so yeah, I was born and raised in Southern California, in San Diego. And, yeah, I had a great family and, you know, a friend and support system and, you know, had a good time, you know, playing some sports and did pretty good in school. Didn’t try super-duper hard through high school or, or college always just kind of did enough to procrastinate and, you know, get, make sure you pass the class are a little bit

Yoni Mazor 1:31
Better. Kind of the same attitude I had, but, um, a little bit of background on the family, right. So your parents worked in industries, where they were involved with you when you were growing up?

Jeff Lieber 1:39
Yeah, my mom was a stay-at-home mom for probably the first 10 or 12 years of my life. And then she started, she got back into teaching preschool, which she loves doing. And she still does it today, teaching a couple of days a week. And, you know, that’s kind of rejuvenated her and given her more life. And then my dad used to work for Medtronic, the big, you know, billion dollars medical company, and then got some patents, and then he’s an engineer by trade. And then he ended up branching off and becoming an entrepreneur and starting his own business. So that was kind of I think, you know, getting to see him do that and start a company with a business partner. And so yeah, you know, saw them

Yoni Mazor 2:26
A company that he started the run

Jeff Lieber 2:28
Medical technology,

Jeff Lieber 2:29
So like designing like heart catheters and stents, and, you know, different medical devices. They’re working on one right now, I think I’m allowed to share it is like a cooling catheter that helps, you know, can help treat stroke patients, where if you say, someone has a stroke, you know, in that first hour or two, after you have a stroke, I mean, that critical period is where you either kind of, you know, typically they die if you can’t get treated and you know, but one quick thing you can do that they’re testing as they have a product that helps cool their brain. So if you can have them use a catheter, and

Yoni Mazor 3:08
Very cool, yeah, it’s a very cool product literally, right? Could it cool the brain down during a stroke? So yeah, it sounds like it’s high-level innovation on the engineering side. So it’s pretty impressive. Okay, so that’s kind of the vomited chatting, whether as an educator, your father’s, you know, engineer, entrepreneur, innovator. And when you grew up you besides you know, kind of taking it easy in school and doing what you got to do anything that you did was entrepreneurial, or you know, you’re trying to make some extra money on the side or anything like that.

Jeff Lieber 3:37
Yeah, there are a few things with uh, yeah, like trading baseball cards, stuff like that. But then actually, my high school senior project was you could do anything basically but I decided to start an eBay business so I went out on Black Friday with my dad and I know went to Best Buy and bought you know, a couple of grand worth of stuff and just tried to resell it on eBay and ended up making you know, I think it was around $700 profit or something like that after a few months selling through it all. So that was kind of my first experience in the marketplace. I guess you could say a real venture and I was always interested

Yoni Mazor 4:13
Or the sprouts, you know, small seeds of sprouts. Some of you were in E-commerce when you were growing up. Okay, so let’s get into I guess, education or education, or what’s the track there?

Jeff Lieber 4:22
Yeah. Then I went to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo University. Again, one more time and slowly what was it Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in California

Yoni Mazor 4:31
Fornia poly tech now what’s a breakdown of that?

Jeff Lieber 4:35
California Polytechnic is something I don’t even know why they call it that. People call it low or Cal Poly Chapala cool. So it’s a Yeah, it was a great school and I had a great time there and I was a business major finance major. And you know just didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do, but just figured that would give me a good base to learn and yeah, so it just had a great group of friends that I met there at college and you know moved away from home and really got to grow up and mature and also not be so mature at times, you know, that had a good time in college, for sure didn’t work incredibly hard during college had my share of good times. But you know, I still was able to graduate in four years and then secure a job before

Yoni Mazor 5:24
So yeah, so when you graduated after four years while your Alice started start putting timestamps on this story. So graduated in 2010. Call it 2010. You graduate with a business degree and what’s your first station in the professional world?

Jeff Lieber 5:37
Yeah, so I think it was, how I got a job fair, I believe at Cal Poly, like my last quarter. Found a great company and interviewed with them in San Francisco. They’re called triage Consulting Group. And they’re about 300 or 400 person company that does healthcare consulting. And it was just a really, it seemed like a great first job out of college to kind of learn the consulting world. And there’s a very young company, very fun,

Yoni Mazor 6:10
Yeah. To relocate from South Southern California to Northern California.

Jeff Lieber 6:13
Yeah, so I moved up to San Francisco and, you know, lived in North Beach there and lived there for five years and got the job. Got the job there. And it was just a really fun culture and great first job, you know, pretty, pretty good, safe payout of college. And yeah, it was, it was just a great time, you know, five years to live. Yeah, yeah.

Yoni Mazor 6:33
So what was your evolution there? Like? What was your net, the dynamics of your work, and what you used to do there?

Jeff Lieber 6:39
Yeah, essentially, we’re finding underpayments from health insurance companies. So if someone goes to the hospital and has like, you know, they stay at the hospital in a coma for six months or something like that, you know, it’s a could be a $2 million hospital bill. And then Anthem Blue Cross, or one of those companies, you know, typically will try to find ways to underpay or pay lesson and the claims are that big. There’s a lot of money. That’s, and there are so many claims every day and a lack of payments. So, this company, just found their niche that they were the first ones to go hard. And in underpayment, recovery, and mandate, they made some good money, and then they just sold

Yoni Mazor 7:18
So give me one example. So you got the institution and the hospital, right, you built a million that insurance company comes in and pays only what a million or a million and a half hours, instead of two, and then the company that you work for, they find that discrepancy, and then they go back to the insurance company say you underpaid, meaning they agreed to pay more, but they underpaid. That’s what happened.

Jeff Lieber 7:35
Exactly. Like typically, you know, Anthem Blue Cross has like a contract with that hospital, and they agree on all this rate schedule and everything. And then we built like, you know, in not Microsoft Excel, but Microsoft Access, we build these like formulas. And, you know, it was a pretty crazy advanced system that they built that we got to use, calculate, oh, wow, they’re there, they underpaid by $250,000, then you just simply write a one-page template appeal letter saying for this claim, this patient, this date of service, you underpaid by 250,000, per this clause. And then, you know, three weeks later, sometimes, most of the time they would pay it and then you know, we would get I didn’t get a commission but the company got a commission.

Yoni Mazor 8:18
Yeah, sounds like you know, it’s very data-driven, it’s fine discrepancy through data and taking action, once the discrepancies found pretty much on a different planet, the health healthcare industry Well, it’s, uh, you know, we’re, we’re distant relatives, you and I guess,

Jeff Lieber 8:34
Yeah, I didn’t put that thought together. Now. I’m pulling

Yoni Mazor 8:38
On your therapist to make you understand that it’s very similar to what we do we utilize data to find a discrepancy. And of course, once it’s found, you take further action, and then you get our financial recovery. So you just walk into my mind into this other industry, which is pretty amazing. Pretty cool. And what’s the name of the company

Jeff Lieber 8:53
Again, it was called triage Consulting Group. And they sold I think, in the last couple of years to some, I don’t recall the name of the company that bought it, you know, but to some doors,

Yoni Mazor 9:03
That string the shank was technology, the algorithm the ability to find discrepancy or to take action on it or a combination of everything? Uh,

Jeff Lieber 9:11
yeah, they were just a big player in space number one, so like, because once you sign a contract with the, with the hospital, then you know, it’s hard to like for a competitor to come in and under undercut them. And then also, like, they’re just they built this in Microsoft Access, like, very complex, sophisticated sort of algorithm for like, plugging in, you know, three years’ worth of hospital claims, and then that’s a lot. Click these macro buttons and spits out like, you know, they just built some sophisticated ways to identify those underpayments and

Yoni Mazor 9:47
What was your role there you were in the development side of the product side or the sell side of the business development what was your component with it? Yeah,

Jeff Lieber 9:55
On like kind of the auditing side so it helped run those formulas and run the math. Macros, and then actually file the appeals and then actually go out to the client sites in the hospitals and build relationships with them. And, you know, report back to them in status meetings, things like that.

Yoni Mazor 10:10
That’s the first thing off, you know when you started the position there, and that’s how you started already started the different position to go out to that office.

Jeff Lieber 10:17
Yeah, is it that position in the first you don’t talk much or do very much? And then by the end, you’re managing a small team of, you know, seven people, you know, after a few years, so it was cool, I got to learn a lot about management and manage other people and clients as well.

Yoni Mazor 10:32
And I assume, for the hospitals is, you know, every hospital that you contract with, it’s the recovery isn’t within the millions or 10s of millions. Yeah. Yeah, most Oh, okay. Just say sorry. So

Jeff Lieber 10:42
To maybe get Tita can, you know, launch a subsidiary business

Yoni Mazor 10:46
That no, we can reach out to them, see if they need any help with, you know, the technology of for auditing and mass data. But that’s, that’s a different day, a different discussion. There. Now, this is still the story of Jeff Libra. So 2015 you move on to the next station? And what was the next station for you?

Jeff Lieber 11:02
Yeah, so basically, I’d always been on marketing, entrepreneurship, sort of email lists, and I bought some courses and refunded them or didn’t take action over the years, and I knew I wanted to try to start something. And so about a year, about four years into working at triage, I saw the Amazon opportunities about 2014. This is when people started selling Amazon courses, and I just started hearing more about it. And so I invested a few $1,000 into one of those Amazon courses and went through it, and the business model made sense to me.

Jeff Lieber 11:38
And I was interested in it. And so I chose a product and had all the products in the world, I decided to land on Puppy Training pee pads as the one product to start with, for whatever reason. puppy what, Puppy Training pee pads, they’re like, you know, when you got a new puppy, you gotta like, you know, train them how to pee on something, not the carpet. So, yeah, I bought a 20-foot container from China for like, $15,000 as my first ever product order, which in hindsight, now, I realize you don’t need to go that big or that risky for your first ever product order, but I did it. And maybe it helped me, it forced me to, like, you know, go all in and learn, you know,

Yoni Mazor 12:25
a big thing for you, like, you know, life savings or dramatically that’s kind of in the middle or even, you know, yeah, at that

Jeff Lieber 12:32
Time, it was probably about like half my life savings. You know, I maybe had 30 grand to my name something like that.

Yoni Mazor 12:37
But and yeah, that enough confidence to put half your life savings for this, you know, because once again, this is a side gig for you. You have your career already developed with triage, right? And then you take a few courses online, right? Mm-hmm. You know, so many of the courses were ASM by any chance Amazon machine? Yeah, yeah, one of them was Yep. So it’s more than one course he did a few courses. Mm-hmm yeah. And that solidified your confidence thing I’m gonna go for you know I’m gonna do my research is and we’re gonna base my data and invest 15 grand and Okay, so you launch how to go

Jeff Lieber 13:07
Yeah, it’s in launching you know got like when I remember when I got my first sale after like two weeks and I got a little alert on the phone and like literally almost started crying or maybe I did cry I can’t but I remember like I was like holy crap like some random person in Kentucky you know just bought the product for 30 bucks and I was like, okay, like so this is real and it ended up taking about like nine months to sell through that container but you know, it started selling and started getting reviews and you know, optimize the listing and you know, ended up getting some real sales which were cool and yeah and then I ended up launching a few other products on and I started chasing some product trends and you know, some hot fat prop fad-products you know, and then you know that that made money for two months and then the fat died and so I kind of learned that painful experience but yeah sold over

Yoni Mazor 14:01
$50,000 part of the pea pod we

Jeff Lieber 14:04
Yeah, yeah, it’s still selling selling your product is still a hero product for you. Why so I ended up selling a parachute pet if we fast forward, I ended up selling that business a few years later, actually, this

Yoni Mazor 14:19
Is the pre-aggregated user posts that are doing the day to day is

Jeff Lieber 14:25
It’s pretty old Yeah, yeah, this is pre-agency. So basically, I

Yoni Mazor 14:29
Don’t say pre aggregators, you know, today. Yeah, like big Agra. Oh, yeah.

Jeff Lieber 14:33
Yeah, it was that it was like 2017 or 2018. Yeah.

Yoni Mazor 14:37
Okay, got it. So let me recap this. So 214 you launched? And then 215 what happened? Do you go solo or on? Yeah. So

Jeff Lieber 14:47
Yeah, maybe cover that. So I ended up launching a few extra products. So I had like four or five skews by the end of the first year. And, you know, but I was still just doing this at night and on the week. When I had time, like only 10 hours, 15 hours a week, and then we were selling maybe like 10 grand 12 grand a month in sales, so we

Yoni Mazor 15:08
Somebody was there with you or just a silly solo just

Jeff Lieber 15:13
It was just me. I mean, I had a few like VAs and got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, but we saw after about nine months or so that I was like, you know, like, if I put what if I put 40 hours or 50 hours a weekend to this? And, you know, I just, I saw the opportunity and just said, like, you know, when I was like, I’m not married, I don’t have kids, like, I’m just living, I got cheap brands and in San Francisco somehow. And like, I, you know, I just read Tim Ferriss’s book, and, you know, the four-hour workweek, yeah, yeah. And he had a good fear-setting exercise.

Jeff Lieber 15:53
If anyone has ever heard of that you can Google it. It’s called his fear-setting exercise. And that was what helped me convince me to quit my job and go all-in on the business. But it, from what I remember, you write out like, Okay, what’s this big decision I’m scared of? Well actually write out what’s the actual worst-case scenario? Like, worst case, nightmare scenario, how bad is it? And I wrote it out as like, maybe I get scammed from my Chinese supplier, and they, you know, take my money, and Amazon cancels my account. And, you know, I end up losing the, you know, 20 grand that I put into the business and, you know, I don’t have any income coming in, you know, but and I, you know I’m at $0, back to $0. Now, that was the worst case, it was like, well,

Yoni Mazor 16:42
At that point, yeah. If that happens, you’ll be able to rebound.

Jeff Lieber 16:45
Yeah, basically, like, if that happened, like, I could one, you know, always go back and live in my parents’ house, if I had to, like, they would take me back in, they took my brother and sister back in a couple of times. So I knew they would take me in. They owed me one if I needed it. And so that was like, worse, worst case, you know, or you stay at some friend’s houses bounce around, or, you know, go back and just get another job. It’s not, you know, not yeah,

Yoni Mazor 17:08
It’s pretty good. Yeah, you have, you know, a landing pad, you know, you know, you don’t lose money, you breakeven, but then you can kind of reset things you leave by little by family, then, you know, go work for, you know, go back to the industry working in a similar industry. Yeah. Okay, so as a calculated bed, but you took the leap of faith, you spread your wings. And then you went solo to 15. And take us from there. Watch us. Yeah,

Jeff Lieber 17:31
Yep. So yeah, then you look at the upsides, like, well, this could change my life forever. And I could it could work out and I don’t work for anybody ever again. And so yeah, I went for it went all-in worked hard, got to travel the world got to go to, you know, map that out. So I got to go to the Canton Fair in China. And then I went to Thailand and live there for a month and I stopped in Europe along the way so I circumnavigated the globe I think in like 65 days, and all while working while slash working and making money making a profit, right.

Jeff Lieber 18:06
Yeah. And making profit making money negotiating prices with the suppliers, you know, just having time in my life in Thailand, like never been somewhere, you know, exotic and cool like that. And yeah, just like open-mindedly okay, like, no matter what happens, like this is worth it. Do you know what I mean? And yeah, and then luckily, you know, we ended up growing it, and then at that time, I had gotten into another business partnership with my friend’s dad who invented a called the hurricane 900-foot ring launcher dog toy. So is this awesome? And it’s still for sale out there today. I’m no longer working in the business or owning it anymore. But anyway, we did a partnership. I helped him launch it on Kickstarter, and then Amazon and it’s just the coolest dog toy one of the coolest out there and so did form that partnership with them. And then if that question on

Yoni Mazor 19:03
The side you have any pets on your of your own or this is just

Jeff Lieber 19:07
The other funny thing. I have no pets, and I got no no kids and I also launched a baby brand and sold that to when I sold so yeah, I I sell I sell things that I don’t necessarily know that I

Yoni Mazor 19:17
Consume. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. I guess he said, Yeah, the dark toy and you were saying that there’s another trajectory that happened?

Jeff Lieber 19:24
Yeah. So then, you know, got into a partnership with him and helped him launch that. And then, and then at the same time, my friend from college, from Cal Poly, he launched a sunglasses brand on Kickstarter with like bottle opener sunglasses called William painter sunglasses, which is, you know, they’re my favorite glasses. I still wear him today. I’ve opened hundreds of beer bottles, and you know, it’s a great conversation starter. And so they were doing well on Kickstarter and Shopify, but they’re not getting any traction on Amazon. So they said, Jeff, can you help us out and they said, Can we just pay you to manage it for us? So I was like, okay, yeah, I think I could manage the time for that. So that was my first agency client, but I didn’t view it as an agency client. I didn’t know it could be a business.

Yoni Mazor 20:08
I just try to be helpful, and useful. But yeah, what year was that? When you onboard you’re first? I

Jeff Lieber 20:13
Was like, 2016. Yeah. And

Yoni Mazor 20:17
So this is you were already tuned into the mix. At that point, you have your brand and partnership, and then your first client? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeff Lieber 20:23
Okay. And then, yeah, so helped grow them from, you know, they’re doing like a few grand a month to, you know, six figures in the first year of selling with them. And

Yoni Mazor 20:34
I want to jump into that for a minute. Because, you know, we’re talking two or three launches yours, your partnership, and then this, you know, this client, but what’s an hour’s your strategy? How do you do that? What’s your magic, so to speak of, you know, launching products on Amazon? At the time? I know, today might be a different ballgame. But at the time?

Jeff Lieber 20:52
Yeah, I mean, at that time, this was back in Yeah. 1617. So it was a slightly different game. Like there’s, you know, other things that I mean, the same principles apply, like the same principles of success apply to Amazon with having a super optimized listing, and having great products and, you know, all that, all that good stuff. But at that time, you know, some of the things that are now banned, like, you know, the review groups and incentivized reviews and things like that, friends and family.

Yoni Mazor 21:22
Were you also in charge of the copyright and the visuals and all the creative as well. Yeah, yeah. Right. At that point, you already have set up an agency or studio or the factories, or what was your setup there for the creative?

Jeff Lieber 21:36
Yeah, so basically, I was kind of utilizing the same team that I was using for my brands for, you know, my friend, sunglasses brand, and then they referred a friend’s fish tank brand, and then they refer to a friend and so then I had four brands that I was managing for clients. And we would outsource, like, some of like, you know, if it was like a photo shoot or video shoot, like Sonic, I have that like, in house, you know, we would help you either orchestrator, set that up, essentially. But yeah, so then all of a sudden, I had all these different brands, you know, these clients, essentially, and that was doing well. But then as you could probably guess, like, I was so spread thin, so overwhelmed. And all three of these businesses were growing equally slowly. And I was like working like 70 hours a week or more. And I was more stressed than I’d ever been in life.

Yoni Mazor 22:34
You don’t work for yourself anymore. Yeah, you work for clients.

Jeff Lieber 22:37
Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. All I wanted to do was go back to my old nine-to-five job back. Although, you know, there are times where it’s like, well, like, I was making, you know, like, that was a pretty nice life. Like, I’ve overwhelmed myself and I didn’t design this I kind of just said yes, to sue me to too many things is what I shine shiny object syndrome. So, then I just had to make a life decision and like, what do I want to focus on and scale what would be the best for me and my life and so I decided, you know, I am liking the agency and helping other clients. And I’m good at that. And my team is good at that. And so I said, why don’t I just stick with that and so I decided to prep my business to be sold. So I sold the pet branded baby brand, which I owned all of that and I sold that within seven months I think is how long this is

Yoni Mazor 23:37
2017 Yeah, yeah. Early Days is like a year or two before the explosion of all the aggregators today the snapping brands left and right and okay so you went directly with the buyer you use

Jeff Lieber 23:51
I use the broker to help take us to market and get buyers and we got like five offers on the business and negotiated the best one.

Yoni Mazor 23:59
Was it okay if we do so what was the multiple on the EBITDA or the SD? Yeah, discussion earning,

Jeff Lieber 24:05
I think it was like 3.3 or something like that.

Yoni Mazor 24:09
Got it. Okay, today we’re 2021 towards the end of it and today, the rate usually is around 555 times on multiple on their earnings. Okay, so things have inflated there are 2017 you sell to one entity sell to one party, all of the portfolio of brands yet

Jeff Lieber 24:30
Just the two brands. Yeah, they bought the portfolio together that you partner with? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not with my partner. So just those two brands that are you on?

Yoni Mazor 24:39
Right 100% you know, the partnership sold

Jeff Lieber 24:41
That Yes. Not the partnership that’s separate. And yeah, so then the partnership that that was kind of, you know, that just had his difficulties you know, we didn’t see eye to eye me in the partner on certain things. He was more old school. I was more new school, you know? No, I wanted to scale using Facebook ads, and, you know, he, you know, wanted to see an instant return. And, you know, I could have done things differently as well. So it just, it was a stressful partnership. And, and it was one of my best friend’s dads. So I didn’t, I wanted to make sure to keep that friendship intact. And so I decided like I just any way possible to get out of that partnership and so excited that partnership didn’t make, you know, much money off, but it was better for me. Yeah, you

Yoni Mazor 25:30
Get the dignity, you kept the balance you got out, you know, nice and easy, everybody’s friends. And if you go to the next, you know, a point of focus for you. So you sold two detached for one. And then what else happened was the next move?

Jeff Lieber 25:42
Yeah, so then all I had left was turnkey product management. And we’re doing full-service management for product brands, you know, on Amazon, and just went all-in on that and built, built the team. And so then I hired my sister, my cousin, some of their friends from their softball team and just sort of, you know, built a small team of, you know, trying to figure out how to build an agency team of like, client managers and US-based team members, which I hadn’t done before. And, you know, just hired people that I’ve trusted. And, yeah, and then just started, started growing it, you know, and went through bumps along the way, but, you know, and then here we are, you know, four years later, and we’ve grown a lot. And now we’ve got over, got over 20 different team members on the team now, mostly in the US, and some in the Philippines. And, yeah, it’s been quite the ride.

Yoni Mazor 26:37
Nice. And this when you started, you know, growing the team and focusing just on turnkey. That was 2017 or 2018.

Jeff Lieber 26:46
That was, yeah. 2017 Yeah, cuz when I knew I was selling the business, I’ve kind of already was pivoting focus to turn key.

Yoni Mazor 26:53
Got it? Okay, so let’s shadow encapsulate, you know, 217 until 2021, where we are today, these four years, you know you grew in 2002 2008. Team members, and maybe you can touch more about, you know, the growth of, you know, the clients, the brands you work with, or the experience that we that matured or, you know, improved over time, and how even the dynamics of Amazon use a little bit, you know, the evolution of to 17 Till today, on the strategies, you know, hardcore tactics, like you say that the other events or shows that you appear on this, the more we can get more into the, you know, both screws of, of how things get done, well, you know, dedicate a few minutes to that, and then, what should you know, summarize the episode and see what we got. Yeah, sounds

Jeff Lieber 27:36
Good. Yeah, so, I mean, Amazon, the principles still are the same? But yeah, back in the day, you could kind of use these black hat, gray hat strapping on what would be gray hat now, and they were okay at the time, or just not enforced and, and all that. And so back in the day, people could come in, throw up a product listing, as long as it was decently optimized, they could use these, you know, they could use these companies out there, I won’t name the names of them, but those companies were, you know, they would get 1000 sales, you know, in a day and then boost you to, you know, to page one, right? And they were like free sales, essentially, you could buy your way to the top of Amazon, and you would stick there. And you could,

Yoni Mazor 28:24
What do you say, stick there? Why are you able to stick there? Because nobody else was toppling you down? Or what were you could just emulate

Jeff Lieber 28:32
people could people were manipulating the Amazon algorithm, and they knew what would rank you there and keep you there. And the algorithm was smart enough to detect what was fake, you know, on authentic buying behavior. And so they were

Yoni Mazor 28:48
so the seller, sophistications was here, Amazon’s ability to track them was kind of there. So you’re able to go there and stay there. Okay, yeah. So

Jeff Lieber 28:55
people could come in with basically no experience, but just, you know, some decent pockets, and the willin

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