Episode Summary

In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDAPaul Baron – Founder & CEO of The Chat Agency talks about Building a Following For Your Amazon Brand, also more information about his life’s journey. #PaulBaron #TheChatAgency

About Paul Baron of The Chat Agency

Million-dollar Amazon seller, Amazing.com instructor, ASM5 student, and a sought-after expert consultant on Chatbot Marketing Automation. His brands have received consulting from Shark Tank’s Barbara Corcoran, and have been featured on the Rachael Ray Show, and Forbes magazine.

Find the Full Episode Below

Yoni Mazor 0:06
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of prime talk. Today I’m having a special guest I’m having Paul Baron. Paul is the founder and CEO of the chat agency, which is a leading agency that helps Amazon sellers build audiences and convert them to sales, which is super, super cool. We’re going to get to that very soon. But in the meantime, Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul Baron 0:26
Yo, man, good to see it. I know that I booked the last time I was supposed to be on this but a triple booked myself, so I’m glad that we made it happen.

Yoni Mazor 0:34
Today me or send me all good time. So today’s episode is going to be all about you. So you’re going to share with us everything you know, who are you? Where are you from? Where were you born? Where did you grow up? As you begin your professional career, station to station until you hit where you are today in the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let’s jump right into it.

Paul Baron 0:54
Yeah, so what do you want to know where I grew up? Yeah, again, they were where were you born? Yeah, born right. Born and raised in Colorado, I still, live here. And which part northern Colorado so if you’re familiar with Colorado, there’s, you know, like the I 25 corridor, kind of bisects the state, north, and south. And then we got I 70 that everybody knows because that’s like the up-high 70s Like the ski resorts. So I’m about an hour north of Denver. You know, most people are familiar with that. Take I 25, the one that goes up north, and I’m about an hour north of Denver, so the outskirts of Denver, you can say? Well, I mean, if it was your deep suburbs, yeah.

Paul Baron 1:32
I mean, who is so deep in fact that it’s not a suburb?

Yoni Mazor 1:36
Got it? Okay. Yeah. In the realm of Denver on the shadows of deep shadows of Denver. Cool. So growing up, like, what was the environment? Like? What were your parents? What kind of industry were they involved with?

Paul Baron 1:48
Yeah, so my dad, got his degree in graphic design back in what shoot the 70s? Yeah, the 70s because I was born in the 80s. And so that was back in the day back when graphic design was like drawing, you know, with a pen. And, you know, I like the Disney design, you know, kind of stuff, right? Like, if you’re familiar, have you ever used Photoshop? Oh, yeah. So, you know, like, you build things in layers, right. Like they did that? They did layer layering, you know, that was like manual, you know, they have like a clear thing that’s out there all the cartoons back in the day, it’s super, super labor-intensive kind of work.

Paul Baron 2:25
And that’s what he was in. Yep. So he, he was, I remember the longest time there was a position when in before it was all digital. Before printing went all digital. There was a position wherein the darkroom, it was called a plate stripper. And his job was to make, I don’t know, my own, it was just, I don’t even know stripping plates. So the joke was that he was a stripper was the because that was the

Yoni Mazor 2:54
Name of the Lambs. But that didn’t work on any interesting like, well, projects or anything that you had this memorable at least you?

Paul Baron 3:00
Well, I mean, I always remember him having his like, art, his drawing, like hanging around the house, you know, little things, like, you know, like portraits and things and like still life’s and things that he would do. So, I grew up kind of in a creative, artistic, I am at heart I’m an I’m a creative.

Paul Baron 3:19
You know, I used to draw and paint and that sort of transition to I play guitar. That’s my creative outlet. Asked my wife, she would say that she wants to be to play more often.

Yoni Mazor 3:31
But your mother was she was also, you know, into the arts, or what can I do?

Paul Baron 3:36
My mom was always singing. She’d always sing little silly songs, like just around the house, like seeing her day, like almost like, you know, like, hey, kids, how are you and like little things, like just a happy person. But she made my parents choose to sacrifice for us and have my mom stay home when we were younger, so we didn’t grow up with a ton. Most of my family on my mom’s side was on food stamps. A lot of people in my family. My family is the only family on my mom’s side. My mom’s side is all here in Colorado. My dad’s side is in Michigan. And we’re the only members on my mom’s side that never lived in a trailer. I was growing up and trailer parks were kind of

Paul Baron 4:30
a part of who I am right. We didn’t have a lot of money. I remember going to the grocery store with my cousins and having to spend special money on certain things. And special money was food stamps. I didn’t know that it looked like it. You call a special one. Oh, that’s cute for kids. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s special money. You can’t spend special money on different things. It’s only for food. So that was a part of you know, a part of my upbringing was we were broke.

Yoni Mazor 4:57
We so did that job you as you were growing up or

Yoni Mazor 5:00
Compel you to kind of try to earn money on doing things due to entrepreneurial or anything like that. You know, I’ve told you, I told you this.

Paul Baron 5:07
And I don’t know if this is, you know, verifiably, verifiably genetically true, but I’m Jewish. Like, my mom found out that on her side, it was all like her great grandmother, and grandmother, it was like, all come down on my mother’s side. But my mom was very forceful in the sense that, like, when we grow up our lives, we will do great things like you are meant for greatness. And so that was always at the back of my head that regardless of where we are, the thing about being poor and growing up poor is you don’t realize that you’re poor. It’s just your normal, right? Yeah. So regular status for you.

Yoni Mazor 5:47
But hold on, you mentioned your mother and you’re on your mother’s side you’re Jewish. So her maiden name you remember was an embedded name or last name her maiden name is Williams but it was down from it was like a Greenberg to I don’t know something and then they kept mirroring out that but yeah, my last name is Baron and barons a Jewish name. I didn’t realize that. Yeah, it’s also you know, pretty out there. And the Jewish last names Okay, so there was there like a Jewish environment in the house religious at all are more secular or, more, more in the sense that like, what I’ve observed in my friends that are grew up Jewish culturally, is there’s just this drive to succeed.

Paul Baron 6:26
Like, it’s the mom and the mom is always like, you’re going to be successful. And that’s it. Like you are going to be successful. And it’s like this expectation that you just grow up knowing that not only will I be successful, like can I be successful but I will be successful and it doesn’t answer to success is kind of defined by you right? So it wasn’t monetarily it was never really I don’t look at success monetarily I look at it in terms of lives impacted and the changing the world like because that was her thing is like you’re going to change the world you’re going to do great things. And it was only later in life that that sort of took the shape and entrepreneurial entrepreneurism.

Yoni Mazor 7:09
So growing up your just wealth mostly focused on school are the sports music for you focus your mindset when you were growing up. Art, art sports, you know, camping like just normal boy things but when I was growing up, it was like art and sports.

Yoni Mazor 7:29
I mean, not a ton. I mean, my wife she played competitive soccer for like 15 years so nothing to that degree like she that’s intense, you know, and yeah, it sounds like even though you said you know and financially you’re not the highest means but yeah, pretty much regular childhood you know, all the stuff that regular child knighted states kind of focus on, you know, community sports are live, you know, it’s fine, you feel good, you feel comfortable. Okay, so let’s hit into I guess, you know, finishing high school and going to a gig you know, in the next session after that what transpired? Yeah, so when I was younger, I’m going to kind of hit on this I wanted to be a pastor. I remember from the time I was four years old, like a little kid.

Paul Baron 8:07
That was where I wanted to head like that I felt like that was my life’s calling. And I, if you look at I mean, I could go there, but I won’t. But like the, if you look at what it is defined as like, biblically, the pastor is somebody who helps people grow who, who nurtures them, and you name the word pastor is like the past something along that’s kind of the meaning of the word, the past pastor or the past, well as the word of God or something, or just a trivia for myself on the fly. But we can deal with that later. And just wondering about that. Well, think of it. It’s almost like a shepherd. Think of it as like a god. Yeah. Somebody who is somebody who gives advice, counsels people, leads, people, mentors, people, almost like, you know, it’s like a, like a rabbi, right? Like, it’s somebody who you go to, like, I, I’m, I’m struggling with this, and I need some help or what, it’s not always. Yeah, it’s pretty interesting, because it’s rare. I haven’t honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever met somebody who’s growing up realizing, you know, that that’s what they want to be and have a passion for it. You know, looking back what compelled you to you know, want to be that? Well, it was a lot of the environment that I grew up in. It was, I remember one distinct time that I was going to sleep when I was a kid taking a nap. And looking out the window, and I still have it vivid, as I can still see, I can still see that in my head and just go about to go to sleep. And I

Paul Baron 9:33
Felt the word pastor didn’t hear it. But I just felt like that was in that moment. At that moment. That sort of propelled me and so going forward into high school that had always stuck with me, right. And

Paul Baron 9:48
When I was in high school, and when I was in junior high, I was always doing things like running paper routes, and you know, being in Colorado when it would snow I would shovel snow to make money and when I was in high school

Paul Baron 10:00
Um, we had a shared family car, which is a Geo Metro family for this, my kids. So I had two sisters. I’m the middle child. So I was always causing fights and always putting up fights because you know, being the only boy with two girls, or do you have sisters? Yeah, too. Yeah, you pick on him.

Yoni Mazor 10:21
Just, that’s just what boys do is like, and siblings, right, you give each other you pick on each other. So I had the Geo Metro, it was my oldest sister who moved out of the house, and I started a landscaping business. And I was using the Geo Metro, which are you? Are you familiar with those cars? It was one of those? Yes, Tony. I think I had one. I mean, my, my uncle in Michigan, and he used that and there’s no it was an era where a belt like a belt is like, you know, it’s like a weird. It’s trying to do a ceiling. It’s weird. It’s a weird card. It’s like a weird fusion experience experiment between General Motors and Toyota that started to create this joint venture called geo

Paul Baron 11:00
To make economical cars. But that was a flop and then really survived. But yeah, you know, to your point, when I was in jail, it was a three-cylinder engine with absolutely zero power. And you would,

Paul Baron 11:11
It would I got so many tickets for speeding in that car. Like if you get a ticket for speeding in jail-like you’re trying to because it is not possible. So anyway, I defined

Paul Baron 11:23
Yeah, tiny car, think like smaller than a Fiat and I would put, I would break down a lawnmower, put the seats down in the back with a lawnmower in the back, and put the weed whacker in there with my cans of gas. And I would go and mow my lawns and make money that way.

Paul Baron 11:39
But again, like that was all just because, you know, that was how I wanted to make money. I go and I go and I make it. And that was always like, I guess that was a little bit imbued in me to at home be this concept that, like my dad, I would call him a he was an entrepreneur. He always wanted to work for himself. He always and he still has that dream. Now, he’s about to retire next year in March. And while he retires, he’s going to be starting a business because he’s always wanted to and my mom owns a preschool daycare. My little sister, she owns. She crushes it on Etsy. She’s in the top 1% of sellers on Etsy. Like firkin kills it. She’s amazing. You know, we have our Amazon brands and then I have the service agent is Chad agency. And my older sister, she’s a teacher, but she always does little side gigs. And like that sort of mentality of you’re always doing side gigs side hustles I think it’s just a part of like our family DNA.

Paul Baron 12:44
I’m not sure if it’s, I don’t know, like where it is. But it’s just that’s just a part of who we are. So like, every single person in my family either wants to or does run, my immediate family runs their own business. And I think that that’s just a part of like, we’re independent people like we don’t want people to tell us what to do. Like, why would I work for somebody else when I could do it for myself, and you know, that sort of mentality? Right? Got it. So in high school,

Paul Baron 13:13
Because I wanted to be a pastor right after school, I didn’t want to go to college. Like, I knew what I wanted to do.

Yoni Mazor 13:20
And so I went to Bible school in Australia. So let’s start slapping the years on this. So while you was that when you were basically after high school and you

Paul Baron 13:30
Graduated in 2001, moved to Australia in

Paul Baron 13:34
January of 2002. And I was there the entire year of 2002. What were we doing there, right, I was studying to be a pastor, it was pastoral leadership, college is what it was all for that Wow, that’s quite a trip. I did it because one of my friends two of my friends ’ really good friends from home, went there for school and they had a big music program. There’s a

Paul Baron 14:01
A huge Christian music group or worship group called Hill song United or Hill song. Like if you’re a Christian you like you know of them. And they had a college they were opening up like teaching people how to do like music and stuff like they did so my two friends were very musically inclined. I played guitar. It wasn’t like that wasn’t why I went, but they went specifically for that program.

Paul Baron 14:25
I had decided the year the summer of 2001 i

Paul Baron 14:30
When I graduated, I was originally thinking I was going to backpack here for three years. And the church that I was a part of at the time again because this was like very I was hyper-religious back then. It was very like that was my family. Well

Paul Baron 14:44
it was basically it and so like I didn’t think about money, you know, I was an I was more on the side of like money’s evil, you know like you know what I mean like, and I don’t believe that spiritualism and less materialism you know, money is material exactly, per se distance from

Paul Baron 15:00
That focuses on the spirit. Okay, so are you in Australia, and then what happened after that year in Australia, I came home, I was actually planning on being there for three years, and they came home in my life, I felt like I was abandoned, right? Because I was planning on being there for three years. And I came home. And you know, when you’re young, I was what I think it was 2120 2021 Stuff like that at the time. And

Paul Baron 15:25
You sort of have like this life plan, right? And it starts going to plan whatever your plan is, right?

Paul Baron 15:32
And then that plan changes, and you’re young, it can be quite a challenge, like for you to sort of figure out like, what is going on? Like, what am I? Yeah, so yeah, shakes you up? For sure. Yep. So I came home when I was stuck in America. And I had, you know, built this life. I had all my friends, all my friends who were in Australia, you know, all of my stuff was in Australia, because I was planning on going back and I just couldn’t get back to school because this was started in 2003

Paul Baron 16:00
Was December 2002. Going to 2003. That was when we had, you know, one of the first major economic downturns US economy kind of took a giant nosedive. My dad was trying to start a business during that time, and he didn’t succeed. And

Paul Baron 16:18
He’s, he’s a craftsman. He’s not good at marketing. And so I just don’t think that he could get business to come in. And so he had to shut down his shop and go back and get a job. And then, I think he was 46.

Paul Baron 16:35
Yeah, he was because I was thinking through this the other day. After all, I’ll be, I’ll be 40 next year. And I remember, he had gotten laid off, and then he started working for himself. The business didn’t pan out, the economy’s taking a dump.

Paul Baron 16:50
They were trying to refinance the house because when they bought the house, it was like this insane, huge economic growth. Like they were paying like 13% on their mortgage. Interest. Yeah, it was absurd, like a credit card rate. And so they were trying to refinance the home, would you save them enough to keep the home but everything kind of came to a head, and they couldn’t refit so they lost the home, my dad, my parents ended up having to declare bankruptcy, and

Paul Baron 17:18
putting myself in his shoes now, you know, I’m, I’ll be 40 next year, I’ve my I have a seven-year-old and a four-year-old son, or seven-year-old son and a four-year-old daughter. And

Paul Baron 17:30
I can’t imagine that, like how hard that was for him. You know, how much that he had to like? I mean, that’s a big blow to your ego. Yeah, it’s enduring. So you got to take you to know, you hit rock bottom, and you have to, yeah, I would have picked yourself up and you know, get back on track and keep good vibes, so to speak, or harmony within the family. So the, you know, the distress doesn’t impact to scratch the kids. Yep. So that was, that was a rough period for them for me, for all of us because, you know, my sister was just going off to college, she got it, she got a scholarship. So she was kind of stretching her wings. Meanwhile, I’m back home. I feel like I’m stuck. All of my friends are in Australia, all of my stuff. Like most of my clothes, furniture, and belongings. Yeah, you know, all my belongings and things are in Australia, because I’m planning on going back. But because of everything that was going on my parents had no money to send me back. I didn’t.

Paul Baron 18:25
I had lined up jobs for when I was home so that I could pay for the airline tickets to get back. Every single one of those jobs fell through. So I spent

Paul Baron 18:34
For the next few years just figuring out who the hell I am like, what am I doing? And I believe, you know, I believe in God, I believe that God has a purpose for every single human, regardless of who we are, where we’re from, that there are unique callings that we all have, and I feel like, at the time, I felt like, adrift, like he just abandoned me. Because, like, turbulence, yes, the turbulence sounds like yeah, you know, I was in my head, I’m doing this thing. Like, I’m going to be a pastor and it’s all for you, God, and that’s what I was thinking, right? And then, like, I felt abandoned, like, he just dropped me. And I was like, well, what do I do? I don’t want to go to school. I don’t want to go to college to get a degree. But everywhere if you want a real job like you got to get a degree like you’ve because nobody’s going to hire you. So that was like that period was just like hustle, hustle all the time. Like I picked up a job as a loan origination officer. I say that very lightly. I got a little bit of knowledge and like the mortgage industry,

Paul Baron 19:39
My mentor and that sort of

Paul Baron 19:42
That ended up going you know, obviously didn’t go anywhere. I’m not in real estate or mortgage now. Right? I did outside sales for credit card processing. You would talk about a hard job, like try selling credit card processing, walking into a busy a business, you know, cold call business owners

Yoni Mazor 20:00
Just show up and try to sell them stuff like that’s hard. Right? So how many years are your kind of standard turbulence path where we just kind of try things around just to goodbye from 213 2003 and two, one well, all the way up until I was about 2728, which is when I got married when I was at,

Paul Baron 20:18

Paul Baron 20:21

Paul Baron 20:22

Paul Baron 20:24
Married. And yeah, it was in 2010 I got married. So I got married when I was, let’s see, I was 27. So it’s 2010 2007 2008 was 2006 2007 2008. I was I got back involved in it at a local church and I was I became the director of the community there it was, I did youth leadership, I did worship-like music. I built a coffee shop, I rent that i

Yoni Mazor 20:51
It was really like hard-core, so I sort of had my falling out, you know? Yeah, so So let’s put that into place from 213 to 13, you got into the turbulence until like, 2007 Sorry, 2003 until 2007 these forces were kind of shaky, but in 2007 you kind of find your way back into the, you know, the church realm. And then you like you mentioned you were in charge of a community building a coffee shop and I guess,

Paul Baron 21:16
Financially succeeding in it at least or you know, making sense of it. So all of this is like, you know, my jobs at the time where I just said odd jobs like as a barista at my most regular job was either serving tables or being a barista. I worked at nearly every coffee shop in Loveland at the time, which is where I live, it’s not a big town. Back then there were like, five or six coffee shops, so I worked at all of them. Now there’s way more but yeah, so as a barista I serve tables.

Paul Baron 21:47
You know, I did construction. Meanwhile, my goal my heart’s desire is I want to impact people, I want to change the world. I got me, my mom, you know, you, you’re meant for greatness, son, you can do it. And I just felt like I was floundering, like, you know, living, you know, minimum wage paycheck to paycheck.

Yoni Mazor 22:06
Just crazy. And the hard knock life yeah, you, you can feel until something big is going to happen. But you’re stuck in a position where you can’t it can vividly see it. But you have to have faith and you know, keep on carrying on. So 2007, you hit into the church environment where you’re you’re six, I guess you’re making something out of it. 2010 you get married, right? And then what to do from that point on? Well, let’s go back to about 2000 2008 is, I met a guy at Starbucks, his name is Phil Hartley. And I don’t know where Phil lives now.

Paul Baron 22:39
And I don’t know if Phil knows, how much he impacted my life.

Paul Baron 22:45
It was like one of those things was just out of the blue. I was having this conversation with him. He was like, well, you got a real knack for marketing. Like, why don’t you? Why don’t you intern with me. And he ran a marketing business where he would go and he’d work with local businesses and help them build up customers and establish a marketing plan. And that was where I started to learn like, all of these little things like my entrepreneurialism, right? Like, I always did, you know, I had two jobs. But then I always did like the extra thing to hustle. And I was like, Man, I’m good at this. Like, I feel like I am good at this. And then also like, my creativity, my design stuff, like, I’ve been using Photoshop since it came out literally when it was in Macromedia like a flash when it was a part of that family, all those sorts of things like back in

Paul Baron 23:29
July of 2000 2000, the late 90s, late 90s 2000, something like that. So I had a sort of little knack for design. And I was like, you know, what, how hard can it be just design websites. And this is 2007 2008. So I started a web development company with my best friend named Jesse. And it was 2009.

Paul Baron 23:50
It’s called barking pineapple. 2010. So I meet my wife in 2008. Around that time, we start dating in 2009. And,

Paul Baron 24:02
Or as Jasmine ate, I’m terrible with time doesn’t eat as nine we start dating. I want to marry this woman. Right? And meanwhile, I’m the director of community at this church.

Paul Baron 24:13
I’m living on like, donated like people are financially supporting me like I don’t have a job because my full-time job is the church. So like literally $400 a month is what I was making. Like nothing. I’m staying at a friend’s house who is a doctor. And they’re housing me because I can’t afford to pay rent cost 400 bucks a month. You can’t afford anything. Like I could barely afford my cell phone bill and insurance. There would be times when I couldn’t afford to pay for my insurance because I had to keep my cell phone on. And so I’d be driving without insurance. And one time I got into a car accident. I was driving without insurance. That’s for car insurance.

Paul Baron 24:52
Yeah, and it’s, I mean literally, it’s like $75 a month like you cheap car. I couldn’t afford that. And so um

Paul Baron 25:00
I remember thinking, like, man, you know, I wish I could just make even 1000 bucks a month, even is just something right. But

Paul Baron 25:09
I decided, okay, well, I want to marry this woman. And I was trying to, you know, start this web development agency with my say that very lightly with my best friend

Paul Baron 25:19
Not making a ton of money doing that. And the opportunity arose, there was a position at a web development firm, a web development marketing firm that they were hiring in, in 2010. And this was after, during our very first remounted marital counseling session. I remember I had busted my ass for this job as I had done. The interview process was like, they took a real the real project that they were doing a free mockup design of a website, and the process did this mockup, and whoever the customer picks us who we’re going to hire,

Paul Baron 25:57
And, and like, whoever’s design is the best. And so I was like I put into they asked for one I put into, like, all this stuff, and I didn’t get the job. And I felt like, this is stupid. Like I, I felt like that was it. During our premarital counseling session, I got a call

Paul Baron 26:13
That they said, Hey, we have a position as a project manager, would you be interested in that? And I said, Yeah, I could come in after this. In the space of a day, like my wife was working or fiancée at the time, she was working at a group home with mentally disabled adults. And then, on the side, she was doing appraisals, she was helping do appraisals for people. And it was like she was getting paid per appraisal that she was supposed to do. And it was appraisals or whatever.

Paul Baron 26:37
You have homes, and it was something like 20 or 30 bucks per appraisal that she was doing. And supposedly she was supposed to be able to do two an hour. Realistically, it was like, one every two hours or less now it was like, absurd how much money she wasn’t making, and we were busting our asses, I’m helping her with that. I’m working on landscaping.

Paul Baron 27:00
And, you know, not making any money and I’m thinking I’m going to marry this woman. And I don’t have any money. I don’t know where we’re going to live. We’re going to live with our parents. Like that’s not an option. The prospects look very, very limited list for this way. But in the space of a day, and this is one thing that like, I’ve talked to a lot of people about this like, this is one thing that I say like, like, we have this prayer, like these prayer requests, like we need jobs that we have enough money that we can pay our bare minimum and save enough to give to charities because we had a lot of friends that were doing charity work. And my wife will fiancé, that

Paul Baron 27:34
Premarital counseling, she got a job offer that day, in the morning. And that night, I got a job offer for $30,000 a year starting salary which again, mind I was making 400 bucks. Yeah, blow your mind off. Yeah, you’re all sudden you were definitely yeah. So yeah, as you say, you know, the change, it can swiftly and you know, a single day or some dramatic change. That’s amazing. Insane. We found we found that we had a list written down of the things that we were looking for, we were looking for a place to live within walking distance to one of our places of employment. And we had talked about it being a house, we didn’t think that we could afford a house. So we were resigning to the fact that we get an apartment, we found a house for 650 a month, two blocks from the place that I just got hired. And that was where that was the first house that we lived in for two or three years after we got married. And we went from in the space of a day making between the two of us about 1000 bucks a month, 1200 bucks a month between the two of us insane. And we went from that to making $55,000 a year between the two of us. Now mind you, that’s the most money I’ve ever made in my entire life between two people. Right? So fast forward a few years, I grew at that agency. They hired me as a project manager because I bought this is a marketing agency that you kind of, you know, you tried to apply it didn’t go through, but eventually it did work at work. So they called me back. They called me back during that premarital counseling session and offered me a job as a project manager because they were growing pretty quickly and they needed, they needed PMS. Now incidentally, if anybody watching this knows me, you know that I am generally not on time for things.

Paul Baron 29:14
I’m like I’ve demonstrated several times in this already, I can’t remember dates and times very well. And that is like essential for a project manager. I’m a terrible project manager.

Paul Baron 29:26
But I’m good at sales and marketing. I’m really good at like consumer psychology, right, and understanding the core driving motives that make people do what they want to do, right? Because as a pastor, right, if that’s what you want to do, right? It’s almost like a, you know, you’re kind of like a psychologist and a leader and a ment

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