Episode Summary

In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Rael Cline – Co-Founder & CEO of Nozzle – talks about how to calculate and increase the value of Amazon customers, also more information about his life’s journey. #RaelCline #Nozzle

About Rael Cline of Nozzle – 

Amazon makes it especially hard to access, interpret and utilize invaluable datasets, leaving sellers lost without any real insights into who their customers actually are or how they purchase. Amazon sellers are hindered in their ability to reach customers, deliver and optimize advertisements, and ultimately, make sales.

That’s why here at Nozzle, we’ve taken note of these shared painful experiences and combined them with our world-class AI expertise to create a product specifically designed to make selling on Amazon easier.

Find the Full Episode Below

Yoni Mazor 0:05
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of prime talks today I have a special guest that I’m having Rael Cline Rael is the co-founder and CEO of a nozzle, which is a really interesting platform solution for Amazon sellers to understand their customers who are buying from them. So it’s cool, really innovative. We’re going to touch on that during the episode. But for now, Rob, welcome to the show.

Rael Cline 0:26
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Yoni. It’s great to be here.

Yoni Mazor 0:29
Our pleasure. Our pleasure. Thanks for your time. So today’s episode is going to be the story of you the story of Robert Klein, you’re going to share with us everything. Where are you? Yeah.

Rael Cline 0:39
In, in listening to previous episodes, and all that you go into a lot of detail about people’s sort of biography, which is great. But also realize I’ve had to brush up on my history and certain dates and try to be consistent. So that

Yoni Mazor 0:53
The whole life story, yeah, so yeah. So that being said, we’re going to share with us, Canada, the idea of where you are from, where did you grow up? Where do you go to school? How did you begin your professional career and station to station until we hit where we are today in the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let’s jump right into it.

Rael Cline 1:11
Sounds good. Cool. So if you’re struggling to place the accents, it’s South African. So I spent the first Gosh, about 2324 years of my life in South Africa, from Johannesburg. So I was born into a family of four I have an older brother, and my father started as a financial advisor working sort of, I guess, at a big insurance company. And it kind of struck out on his own when I was pretty young.

Yoni Mazor 1:44
This company was international, just national and

Rael Cline 1:47
Well, it’s Liberty light, which is international. So it’s got a presence here in the UK as well.

Yoni Mazor 1:52
I think they also hear Liberty they have commercials here Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

Rael Cline 2:02
So yeah, what people, like I guess I think corporate wanted to kind of, do his own thing very early on with young kids. Right. And that’s always like the big entrepreneurial risk, of course. And so he took that as I was, but yeah, at a pretty early age and you know, growing up I guess he was very obviously Careful what you share with your kids, but some of them maybe when I was a teenager, that kind of thing, he would also share some of the issues he’s having at work right and so kind of get exposure to some of the client problems that he’s helping resolve or even moral dilemmas I guess in business that you’ll come across and trying to fight for insurance claims for your clients against big corporates and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I kind of got a good flavor of what it means to work on your own the sorts of issues that come up, and just wide exposure to business through him was

Yoni Mazor 2:51
Is he like an agent that had his location and office like a franchise? Or?

Rael Cline 2:56
No, it wasn’t? Yeah, so in the beginning, it was definitely like an employee riding on liberty and doing his thing, but then on his own, he was completely independent. So that is you know,

Yoni Mazor 3:10
I think yeah, under the umbrella of this big corporate insurance company

Rael Cline 3:17
Had to have to find his own you know, customers and build the reputation and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And so yeah, not easy. But yeah, he’s done well and price carved into different types, I guess of financial service, advisory type work, and all of those sorts of things. Diversify the revenue stream so yeah, just watching this is

Yoni Mazor 3:37
Like, let me just kill FYI. Johannesburg is more like the New York City of South Africa. Oh, that’s more like the leisure town or like the Ma’am, if you like.

Rael Cline 3:50
Most of the GDP of South Africa will happen in Johannesburg and Cape Town. Cape Town is more comparable to Miami, shall we say?

Yoni Mazor 3:59
Cape Town has more leisure more like Miami and Johannesburg more like the financial?

Rael Cline 4:04
Exactly. Exactly. So in our summer holidays, Southern Hemisphere has fished around on summer holidays, December and January. And sort of most of Johannesburg descends upon Katana captain’s do not like that, of course. But yeah. So right now, the January, my Facebook and social Easel full of amazing beach pictures.

Yoni Mazor 4:26
Yeah, so now we’re freezing in the winter here in the northern hemisphere where they’re having a good summer time there. Okay. So your father is basically on his own and you know, carrying his weight and trying to be successful in business. And what about yourself when you were growing up? Were you involved with anything that was an entrepreneurial spirit, you’re trying to make money on the side by yourself nice things are just the money.

Rael Cline 4:44
Yeah, I mean, I mean, he just really, I guess the value of money. There’s always kind of like incentive schemes around deposits. For instance, would say, if you go out and earn money, I will help contribute as well extra to sort of top it up with a certain amount of price. So it’s really kind of easily hidden and incentivizes me, I guess, to understand all this stuff and set up for whatever I wanted to get some employees, or at the time was Magic the Gathering cards. Right, like 1213 that kind of stuff. So yeah, I guess kind of instills the values of hard work and saving patients and all of that sort of things. So it goes with the entrepreneurial stuff. I mean, there were certainly.

Rael Cline 5:22
I mean, it’s interesting is maybe there’s definitely one, I guess, a strand of entrepreneurial things, but there’s also just, generally speaking, I would, you know, have a wide range of interests, and both my parents would be pretty open about it. Like if, for instance, I’d come to regret this. But if I pursued magic for a while, like literally, you know, magic tricks and climbing started that I went for lessons. And so, you know, even though most of these things were fairly ultimately here, I didn’t feel that for that long. My parents were encouraging them to say like, you know, this is another one of your fears so they piqued my curiosity and encourage that.

Rael Cline 6:02
And I think that’s important. In just sort of a from like, a parenting point of view, but be just generally me trying to figure out what is it that I want to do ultimately, right, and so, so there are lots of different kind of hobbies and things that I took on terms of entrepreneurial stuff, there were things within high school around finally, doing like spread betting ultimately, which was pretty funny. So what does that what do you call that be called a spread betting? So that’s like, essentially betting on sports matches and outcomes, right. And so we would run a book, ultimately, our bets for football, or soccer, I guess, in the US, for the English Premier League, for cricket for rugby. And we’re competing with like lunch money to extract money, right? Like people try by

Yoni Mazor 6:55
You guys like in prison, you know? Yeah, free lunch.

Rael Cline 6:59
Yeah. It’s funny, because I was like, offsets equal like, two to one odds on this team winning and then we will offset it perfectly on the other side, just to create liquidity ultimately, get the word out and get the liquidity guy

Yoni Mazor 7:15
Working-age generally, just the one that does the data analytics, or you just do the bank. What are you all three?

Rael Cline 7:20
Yeah, kind of all three, right? You got to be an integrated operation in those days. And then, funnily enough, we had a few teachers in our sports books, which is quite funny. But

Rael Cline 7:31
Yeah, so yeah. Nothing, I guess, Major, in terms of like, I guess revenue or cash or whatever, but suddenly just kind of,

Yoni Mazor 7:42
Yeah, the creator, somebody asked organization that involves its mathematical nature and

Rael Cline 7:48
How you acquire customers. How do you also want to say, I guess below the radar in many cases?

Yoni Mazor 7:56
Okay, got it. So this is the environment growing up. So let’s go into the moment where I guess you will graduate high school and go to a more elevated education. So to decide for you.

Rael Cline 8:08
So I went to a university in Johannesburg. It’s a bit of a long name. It’s called the University of Witwatersrand or, as they call it, so I got to spell that. Yeah, it’s VIP boxes, run W it w a t e r s.

Yoni Mazor 8:25
Name or German? What is that?

Rael Cline 8:27
That’s Afrikaans, actually, as a Dutch derivative? Ultimately? Yeah, it’s one of them, I guess, official languages of South Africa. And estimate.

Yoni Mazor 8:37
Yeah, a lot of people’s history in South Africa. But as far as I understand, the kind of the Dutch was a Dutch colony, and sometimes a British colony, and then that apartheid and then the magenta and the whole aberration. So you got it.

Rael Cline 8:51
That’s, that’s what African history in about 10 seconds.

Yoni Mazor 8:57
Is the Dutch dialect that is unique to South Africa?

Rael Cline 9:00
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s a derivative of Dutch but it’s its sort of unique thing, etc., etc. Yeah. University poetry. Yeah. Which is not the case. But so yes, I went to the kind of local university there. I started with in America, your quarter kind of liberal art, sort of undergrad. Right. So that is history, politics. Yeah, the sorts of those sorts of subjects. I did that for a year, and then actually switched to a kind of commercial stuff. So finance and economics, are kind of a big switch.

Rael Cline 9:40
I enjoyed, I enjoyed all of that stuff around the sort of history and I guess Politics and International Relations and all those sorts of subjects. But I kind of just felt that one’s more of a harder skill set. So yeah, I went on to onto finance and economics and this is much more quantitative, you know, all those sorts of things. And so this is, I guess, a very different part of the brain. But I was very happy there, right? I did a full four-year undergrad in a whole lot of quantitative type modeling around. Yeah, basic economics and finance, I then did, I ended up going kind of doubling down in finance. And so I ended up teaching and lecturing final year undergrads in finance, and publishing papers. And so I was kind of, at that point, considering a Ph.D. in doing in finance, and I didn’t do it, which you know, respect is a great decision. I took a job at a company called a financial advisory company.

Yoni Mazor 10:46
So let me capture this moment when I capture this moment. So this is when you kind of finish off your education. And then you head into the business world, your professional career. So what you were at?

Rael Cline 10:56
Yeah, this is the point I have to look up on LinkedIn. Right. So this is, this is. Yeah, this is that

Yoni Mazor 11:01
There is no bar or you can move between the years.

Rael Cline 11:05
Yeah, sure. So this is about 2008. Basically.

Yoni Mazor 11:11
2008, you graduate, you head into the business world and your first job in the professional world. This is, you know, being a consultant for a financial firm. Yeah.

Rael Cline 11:21
For Yeah, so it’s a financial consultancy. So I worked on, the government oil and gas company, a lot of their financials. So I do a lot of the financial modeling. And just, I guess, advising them on certain sort of strategic things that they should do based on the outcomes of their financial modeling. The company is called Petro South Africa, Petro USA. And so yes, up in the weeds of Excel, basically, right, and formulas and all of that sort of stuff. So, I mean, it was, it was really good in some ways, like number one, I would get exposure to senior management at like, an enormous company, which is great, and seeing how people operate, what they’re incentivized by, you know, all of that sort of stuff. But it also made me come back to this team a little bit later on. But it also gave me a sense of my impact was pretty much limited to a spreadsheet, right? And advisory in general, you’re out,

Yoni Mazor 12:16
I want you to, if possible, take us a little bit into the spreadsheets, the dynamics, and just a little flavor. Yeah.

Rael Cline 12:24
Yeah, these are super heavy present spreadsheets. So oil and gas are kinds of a parallel universe, right? Like, you’ve got to figure out what the probability is of extracting the stuff out of the ground in the first place, what the external oil price is, and whether it’s worth your while, therefore, to go and do all of that sort of stuff.

Yoni Mazor 12:45
Here, so for Amazon sellers, we call market research, should I produce this product in the marketplace or not? Yeah. What’s, what’s the price selling in the market? What’s going to be a few months from now even a year or two from now, what are the sourcing costs are the cost extraction? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Rael Cline 13:05
I would argue, I would argue it’s a little bit closer, perhaps to the vendor model, because you don’t have control over the price. The oil prices oil price, right? That’s true. But you can sell it that. But yeah, so and then off the back of that, yeah, just modeling out different scenarios of if this happens, then you should do this. If it doesn’t happen, you should do that. But you should still consider doing this regardless, for instance, right? So like,

Yoni Mazor 13:27
Especially being a wonderful machine. What kind of intellectual work of brilliance did it need from you or require from you or your team? For example, I just want to capture that essence, if there’s any, if not, if it just pretty much, you know, pressing one, and that’s fine. You can just show it.

Rael Cline 13:41
Yeah, I mean, there’s the ability to justify your modeling in the first place. So what assumptions are you making in this model? And if I change this assumption, or tweak it slightly, you know, am I going to get dramatically different results? In which case, it’s not a robust model, right? I mean, as we know, from this, I guess, epidemic modeling, to make it maybe a little bit more relevant that a tiny change in assumption can result in a completely different outcome, then it’s kind of like, well, you know, that’s not their purpose. Like, I can’t rely on that sort of stuff. But

Yoni Mazor 14:11
You got to present it and protect it in a way where there are still holes in it. But if you covered as many holes as possible, so it’s as airtight as possible. So there are a lot of errors.

Rael Cline 14:22
And you’d be presenting a range of outcomes, right? It’s not you’re saying, this is the number, right? It’s kind of like, well, I’m kind of 85% certain that it’s between this number and that,
s
Yoni Mazor 14:32
Right? It’s more like, five or six scenarios, you know, the possible scenarios and different outcomes. And the board, whoever’s, you know, the top management saying, Okay, well, with even with all these five or six scenarios, we feel we can deal with this or we can be challenged with this, or we should go for it. Right, right. So it’s kind of irrelevant. Yeah.

Rael Cline 14:49
Yeah, absolutely. And we were a very small company. So I mean, of course, there would be somebody checking my work, but it’s not someone that’s going very deep into the formulas and you know, checking. I haven’t screwed something up basically until

Yoni Mazor 15:02
Now until you sit at the

Rael Cline 15:04
Audit. Yeah, exactly. I’m still trying to figure out Yeah, exactly.

Yoni Mazor 15:07
Oh, good. Okay, so, understand the elements now bear with us. Thank you for sharing that. So how long have you seen the station? Or what was the trajectory within this company?

Rael Cline 15:15
Yeah. So that was about those about two years. And then I went back that two things, I went back to lecturing at the university. I mean, that’s just part-time, right? That’s because I just found it super stimulating. I was still kind of toying with the idea of a Ph.D.

Yoni Mazor 15:29
What are you lecturing is mostly on the financial things? Yeah, so I’m going to find out if you if I if you share with us,

Rael Cline 15:35
Yeah, sure. So it was called essentially capital budgeting. And that’s the idea of valuation at the end of the day, right. So how do I value a company? Well, how do I forecast the cash flows? How do I bring back all those future cash flows into today’s monetary terms, and therefore arrive at a valuation? What are the different ways to value a company, all that sort of stuff, right, so kind of similar to what I was doing anyway, at that student, their former job, but and I really enjoyed it, I mean, interacting with, you know, with the students, and I always say, like, I, I enjoy, I enjoy teaching, I very much enjoy teaching? But I almost work off the assumption that people want to be there in the first place. Like I would find it pretty difficult teaching, maybe first-year undergrads who feel that they just have to be there, it’s compulsory, cause

Yoni Mazor 16:27
They don’t realize how they got to that chair, like, how did I get, because this is

Rael Cline 16:31
already this is finally an undergrad, it’s kind of tilted a lot for people who kind of want to be there and are engaged and not just doing the bare minimum, they’re kind of reading the newspapers and seeing, you know, stuff to talk to me about and all that sort of stuff. So I thought there was, there was also no, super rewarding. And as

Yoni Mazor 16:48
I started coaching, this was one thing I found interesting was that you deal with all this valuation of companies and future cash flows. So because you lectured about that in university nevertheless, I might be going outside here, but I think it’s maybe interesting if you have an interesting answer for us. What’s going on with all this? You know, the brand aggregators in the E-commerce and Amazon space, and just the valuation is from, you know, as far as you can see from your angle, and insight, do you want to share with us about that? Is it? Is it going in the right direction? Or is it there’s the multiple started to like to another like seven plus? So yeah, share with us about that?

Rael Cline 17:21
Yeah, it’s, it’s crazy. We worked with five or six aggregators. We’ll get to all of that later. But yeah, I mean, and it’s interesting because I’ve got quite a lot of knowledge on sort of the Amazon domain. But I’ve also got quite a lot of knowledge on how to value companies and all of that sort of side as well. So I can sort of work both sides. Yeah, I mean, what I think is going on the multiples are, have increased a lot, and it’s becoming a lot harder to justify this high multiple. And we’ve got our unique take on the nozzle to help with that valuation. But the opportunity is still there.

Rael Cline 17:56
At the end of the day, a lot of it, again, if this company, if these companies exist in a spreadsheet, you’re arbitraging a bit of a multiple between if I buy all of these companies at a, I don’t know, 5x EBIT on multiple, I can see that if I exit to a much bigger private equity company or I list on you know, the on the exchanges, they’re trading at a seven or 10x Multiple, for instance. And so there’s still quite a lot of room. To play with that. Ultimately, the gap is getting much harder. And I think a lot of the aggregators are finding it. Beyond the spreadsheets, it’s a very different world,

Yoni Mazor 18:33
Right? You only touch two stations, what about keeping and making this a cash cow and paying off all the debt? Or, you know, there’s no evidence?

Rael Cline 18:41
Yeah. Interesting. So if you look at a little bit in the weeds here, but if you look at they’re basically like leveraged buyouts, right? So in the late 80s, there was a whole sort of new phenomenon operators. Yeah. KKR, doing mergers and acquisitions. Exactly. I’m doing moa. Right, and which is, whatever 80% of the deal will be financed by debt. And so you’re buying companies that are very cash generative, that you can easily pay off the debts that would be selling junk bonds, it was called in the late 80s, Michael Milken, and all that sort of stuff that happened.

Rael Cline 19:14
And so they’re doing it’s somebody’s exercise state, right, which is a leveraged by us. And so your returns can be juiced because of the high very high sort of debt component, 80 odd percent of the total deal size, etc., etc. Except the issue is, you’ve got to be certain that you can pay off their debts. And the problem that a lot of sellers were having, particularly in q4, where, you know, most of your sales would happen is all the supply chain issues would come in. And if you’re having stomach issues, in particular, that’s so bad on Amazon and more than almost anywhere else, because you just, you know, your product doesn’t exist. Almost if, if you don’t have to start to just live down the rankings, and then that jeopardizes your ability to pay off the debt. And so these

Yoni Mazor 19:56
Are the words the model sees how volatile it is. It’s not there. Tightest, not that firm because it’s so reliant on components or maybe not even.

Rael Cline 20:05
I would not be surprised if, you know, the financial modeling didn’t even take this sort of stuff into accounts right on especially for like, obviously, if you started aggregating with COVID, or supply chain stuff, sure, you can kind of do scenario analysis there. But for the ones who raised a whole lot of money and had a whole business plan, perhaps sort of pre-COVID and pre-sort of the supply chain, you probably wouldn’t even be modeling the scenario of like stuck issues. And what it would mean, you know, throughout a slug for this time, or, or even on a cash basis, where I have to order my inventory, other than buying something on it, so I do that, what does that mean for my cash flow? So yeah, there’s a lot of there are a lot of complications,

Yoni Mazor 20:44
but I just realized something funny, or when you’re listening to what you’re saying is that the pandemic had, had gave given birth to a lot of the aggregators, because it was so much thrust into E-commerce, but also might be the death because of all the supply global supply chain issues, where they can’t manage the cash flow, cash flow, and they’ve been crunched out, and the rankings are just dropping. So they lose income to the business and the ability to generate business and generate sales. So that’s kind of almost like a double-edged sword.

Rael Cline 21:11
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve realized kind of two things as well, like, from how do you get a lot of the aggregators would be focused on the cost-cutting side post-acquisition? Right? So how do I grow this company? Well, at least on the sort of profit side, it’s about, it’s about looking at the cost side of the equation, right? It’s how do I streamline these things, how to streamline the supply chain, get better prices, or centralized teams that operate across most of the company or the brands that I own. And so things get a lot cheaper, when you’re getting to grow the revenue that becomes a lot harder. And I think certainly, some of the mistakes we’ve seen in the aggregator space are the early days of it. When you buy the business, the owner of the business doesn’t stay on, right, so there’s the knowledge transfer done on the mat

Yoni Mazor 21:55
Might be gone, which is vital for the growth and the trajectory.

Rael Cline 22:00
Yeah, exactly. It’s like really understanding the ins and outs, of the Amazon universe and all the quirks that it has, that knowledge transfer doesn’t quite happen. And so when you’re looking at growing the business other than cost-cutting, then that can be a challenge as well, if you don’t have that knowledge transfer, so but we’ve seen that change, right, we’ve seen that change, we we’ve seen a lot of the models now on how they do deals would be okay, you can stay on for a customer for two years, you will participate in somebody’s upside, right, if you hit certain targets, like your analysis, whatever it may be, absolutely so and I’m which I think is a lot healthier, that helps me with a knowledge transfer, they’ve got skin in the game, like that’s just sort of a much, much healthier model.

Rael Cline 22:36
We’ve also seen a, you know, in the beginning, again, it was like, I don’t know, 80% of your business needs to come from Amazon. Now, when people are to justify these high multiples, they’re going to have to grow a lot bigger to justify them. So they’re looking, you know, how does, what is this FTC potential, what are the other channels and all of that stuff, or, ultimately, some of the really good strategies are just focused on, ultimately, I’m buying and creating an audience, right. And so if I can create an audience that if I buy another brand, or I’m launching new products in the future, I’ve got a readymade list of like a sort of people to go market to right. And that’s just

Yoni Mazor 23:18
An opportunity to create a brand that resonates with consumers and you grow your fan base and become more iconic than the other if you’re

Rael Cline 23:24
Much more you’re selective on the sorts of companies you want to be buying don’t have their brand building opportunity. And number two, is it a similar sort of product to my existing customer base that I have across all my brands so that I can go to some of the cross-sales? Absolutely. Yeah, it’s, we look at it as and we’ll come back to this we look at that as reducing your customer acquisition costs, right? How much do I have to pay to acquire a new customer? But hey, if I’ve got you know, a long list of existing customers that I can go you know, market to or something like that, then yeah, you’re in a good spot.

Yoni Mazor 23:55
Got him breathing very nice and such I want to go back to your storylines, just so the capsule, what you said about the eighth-graders, in a nutshell, you know, there are issues with the model, there’s volatility, but if somebody you know, there’s some of the greatest play, right, there’s still much room and justification for these multiples, even the replacement of multiple multiplications. Yeah, definitely. There’s a play on the equity and valuation side of the company by five by seven. But later on, you’ll be able to sell out a 10 or 15, or 20, if you hit the exchanges and stuff like that. So yeah. Patience is pretty valuable.

Rael Cline 24:30
Yeah, one of the last points on this, I guess, is depending on how big you want the brand to be. But some of the lessons from the DDC world are kind of like, you know, what are the limits of just doing it online. So you know, the last few years you’ve seen a lot of DTC brands moving to brick and mortar because they’ve kind of reached the ceiling of what they can do, you know, on Shopify, and through Facebook marketing or whatever their traditional customer acquisition channels are, and so they’re doing deals with physical in-store type. It has to do that right. And so, and again, that’s very, very different to how you think about kind of the Amazon side. And you know, the sort of a lot, a lot of the hands-off side and logistics and everything else. And so, you know, it’s a very different skill set. And if you, if you buy, if you justify a purchase on diversifying, you know, we’re going to do dc, we’re going to do brick and mortar, that’s a hell of a challenge. It’s doable. And there’s going to be a lot of, you know, aggregators that succeed in that, but it’s, I would say, harder than people think.

Yoni Mazor 25:29
Right? So you’re saying that though the aggregators will crack through that wall and be able to, you know, grow from outside from, basically, from E-commerce into a brick and mortar will also trailblazer and change the trajectory and the whole model, the whole thesis. So to be continued? There will be interesting developments coming out in the future. So that’s a valid point.

Rael Cline 25:46
Yeah. Especially if valuations keep increasing, right? Like, how do you justify the valuation? Well, you have to get to more customers?

Yoni Mazor 25:53
Yeah, there are more lanes? Yeah, more or less to get to the customers and trailblaze into other dimensions. Okay, so 2010, you transfer, you know, you were in between, I guess you were working for the oil company. And you will go back to the lecturing a little bit, and what happened?

Rael Cline 26:06
Yes. And then and then I was also doing work for a private equity company, right. So actually, I was doing the models for all these leveraged buyouts, all the stuff that we’ve been talking about, these are very different companies that are buying. So these were, in a way, kind of boring businesses, but like really good businesses. So I don’t know waste disposal companies or you know, stuff that has a pretty predictable cash flow, that if you can just, you know, buy it out, put a lot of debt on there, pay off the debts and focus on the cost side of the business, again, very similar to model what we see now on the aggregator site, you could do very, very well out of that.

Rael Cline 26:40
So again, I was kind of existing, these companies have existing spreadsheets for me and saying, Well, here’s the scenario and this price, and if you do this to the cost side, you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, very much on the valuation side, very much on the leveraged buyout side, a very successful well known, I guess, fund, private equity fund in South Africa, blank, mostly South African companies, some of the Atlanta job, the name, yeah, ethos, ethos, private equity, ethos, private equity.

Rael Cline 27:09
So then, in 2010, I left South Africa to go study for a master’s in finance at Cambridge University in the UK. So this was again, so I’m very much in the finance world at this point, right? Very deep in the finance world. So this was a fantastic opportunity I mean, the truth is, I had wanted to leave South Africa for quite some time I wanted to I suppose I didn’t have to commit to going spend the rest of my life in a particular place. But I certainly wanted to get out of South Africa for a while I just thought about usual things around I want to expand my horizons. London has always been a big destination of mine. I have it’s easy for me. I have a dual passport, right? I have a British passport as well as the South Africans. Those

Yoni Mazor 28:00
Parents want to be apprentices

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