Episode Summary

In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Devin Miller of Miller IP Law talks about The Benefits of Patents & Trademarks for Amazon Sellers, also more information about his life’s journey. #DevinMiller #MillerIPLaw

About Devin Miller of Miller IP Law – Helping Startups Protect & Grow Inventions & Brands. If you are a startup, small business, or a solo inventor looking for a high-quality & affordable patent or trademark, you’ve found the right place. We offer transparent and affordable options specifically designed for your business goals. Grab a strategy meeting to kick things off!

Find the Full Episode Below

Yoni Mazor 0:06
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode I talk about today I have a special guest today I’m having Devin Miller. Devin is the founder and CEO of Miller IP law, which is a law firm that focuses on helping eCommerce sellers with patents and trademarks. So, Devin, welcome to the show.

Devin Miller 0:22
Hey, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Yoni Mazor 0:25
Awesome. In our pleasure to have you on our show today. So today’s episode is gonna be the story of you the story of Devin Miller, are you gonna share with us everything? Who are you? Where were you born? Where are you from? You know, how did you grow up? How’d you begin your professional career, station to station until we’re going to hit where you are today, especially with the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let’s jump right into it.

Devin Miller 0:51
Awesome. Yeah, so that’s probably a much longer story than anybody wants to hear. So I’ll try and give a bit of a condensed version. So a bit about me. So I am a husband been married for 14 years father of four, so have an oldest as my son, that’s 11. And then three daughters going down to five years old. So that in itself is that pride and joy in that the focus of my life and what I cherish the most. And then on the bit on the educational side. So I got four degrees with my wife always jokes is three degrees too many. So I’ve got an electrical engineering degree, a degree in Mandarin Chinese, an MBA or Masters of Business Administration, and then a lot of green. So really, that’s kind of been my path as far as education now that transitions into my career, I’ve always kind of had two passions. One is I love startups and small businesses, I’ve done you know, everything from small family businesses and make a few $1,000 A year up to seven and eight-figure businesses that are still going today and thriving and doing well. And then in addition to that, you know, those that’s always been one of my two passions, and the other side is the legal side, which is I love doing the or intellectual property work with patents and trademarks and copyrights and helping startups and small businesses to protect and grow their business. So I’ve been doing the legal or both of those, both the entrepreneur side since while I was still in college and then on the legal side been doing it since there now for about 10 years.

Yoni Mazor 2:16
Yeah, so yeah, that’s the thing for the recap is it’s pretty great. Now I just want to put all that you know, you know, aside for a second I want to dive into your journey. Right. So let’s start from the beginning. Where were you born?

Devin Miller 2:31
Yeah, so I was I was born in Mesa, Arizona, which is just it’s just right outside Phoenix, Arizona here in the US. You know where I was born versus where I grew up. So after so my family has been in a place called Morgan Utah to small just kind of farm town throwing a lot basket I want but for a long time was a small farm town and my family’s been here for all generations back to the founders in 1800. So

Yoni Mazor 2:58
Got it so but your formative years and when he grew up was where and it was in Oregon, Utah that small farm town got in which age were you when you guys relocated to Arizona?

Devin Miller 3:08
So I am just the opposite. I was born in Arizona I grew up there till I was two my family was from Morgan moved there for a couple of years for a job moved back and I grew up in Morgan

Yoni Mazor 3:17
Guy so your formative years I was back in Utah Morgan Utah again you in what kind of industries you’re your prints were involved with when you were growing up charging remember

Devin Miller 3:25
yeah so my mother was a stay at home mom who raised us was always there to help the kids and my dad was he was a background in electrical engineering he did a lot of work on various electronics primarily with medical devices so he did a lot of engineering work with medical devices everything he earlier on did Motorola later on work with LG Electronics in Seoul Korea.

Yoni Mazor 3:47
Got it and okay so when you grow up at what you’re involved with anything that was entrepreneurial and its core, like you know, on paper out some bubble gum, any things you tried to do to make money on the sidewalk going up?

Devin Miller 3:59
You know, I wish I wish I could say I was more so I and I encourage my kids all to do it and they much more entrepreneur and I was I always had a few fear schemes and that but most of the time I had a this a job that I’d had throughout high school learn the value of money. My biggest passion was as I restored a muscle car when I was a kid and so usually my one which one a 67 Camaro, so Chevy Camaro so it tells

Yoni Mazor 4:24
a very interesting story. How old were you when he did that?

Devin Miller 4:28
So it’s longer it’s a slightly longer story. So, my dad, had one when he was growing up, but that was the day when they did not butter, a classic car. And so he’d got one when I was 13 or 14. Today this will be a fun project car that I can work on with my son and me I showed zero interest in it and I said that there’s an old rust bucket that doesn’t look cool at

Yoni Mazor 4:51
All. That’s his car that he had back from 67 No, it was one

Devin Miller 4:54
That he got from a friend. So same guy, the same type of car. He did but it wasn’t the same Carwin hid from when he was a kid. But he bought picked it up from someone else. And you know, it was one where he was getting about ready to sell it and then somebody else can. That’s an awesome car, I’d love to buy it. And that was me as like a 15-year-old saying, well, somebody else’s, it’s cool that it’s got to be cool. Let’s not sell it. So then I got excited. And from about 15 to about 16 and a half. So a year, year and a half my dad tore it down, tore down to the engine block, builds it back up, there was still a rust bucket. And then I saved up and did a paint job and did bodywork on it. And I still have it to this day, and it’s in the garage, and I’ll take it out on some fun drives every so often.

Yoni Mazor 5:37
Ah, that’s pretty cool. So he did I guess all this work in your home you didn’t put in the shop and tried to do there you kind of did it your house, right?

Devin Miller 5:43
A lot of it was some of the more complex work and we got into really nitty-gritty bodywork. We had some other people help out and took to a shop, but the engine work a lot of the restoration building in the interior. And that was all just done in our garage in our house. Right. So

Yoni Mazor 5:57
If your father was a bit natural, he’s an engineer. But I guess you mentioned also that one of your degrees was in engineering. So I guess you had the knack for that also, was that helpful for that? Are you already discovering were you able to discover that you have a knack for engineering with this project or did you know beforehand or that develop later on?

Devin Miller 6:13
You know, I don’t know. I don’t know when to develop? It was the only thing I remember is when I was getting into getting ready to go to college. I said well what do I want to do? What do I want to study I said well, I think is interesting how electronics work and kind of are figuring it out. I never really necessarily put it to a toe together with a car that isn’t well, my dad’s an engineer he’s getting what he does is kind of cool. I think it’s kind of fun to figure out how things work I’ll go into engineering and that was probably about the extent of thought that I gave to it when I got it. Got it got

Yoni Mazor 6:44
That’s very cool. So today when the Camaro has a little bit of a bit of an issue what do you do you take it to a shop where yourself I let you know you know from the inside out right yeah, you know you’re very intimate with you know every little corner

Devin Miller 6:55
most of it all I’m doing myself unless it’s something that you need some tools or specialized equipment or something that I don’t have in the garage but if it’s a tune-up if it’s swapping out parts or fixing something most of the time I’ll just do it myself guide

Yoni Mazor 7:06
And where to go where to go. So you also mentioned in passing that your family was a few generations in Morgan Utah. Yeah, so what was that you guys are for Mormon the center are there yeah so

Devin Miller 7:19
Mormon the Center Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or LDS whichever nickname or, you know if they’re going by, but yeah, so the family was LDS back in the late 1800s. They came or came into Utah. They went to figure out a place they wanted to live they started a sawmill family to build a sawmill to establish the county or you know the city around it. And then really the family’s been here ever since and related to half the county probably and it’s kind of just been a generational place and we all love and enjoy it

Yoni Mazor 7:53
Guy’s sounds very communal, but we also like attending church every Sunday as a family. What was that kind of routine?

Devin Miller 7:59
Yeah, so we’re pretty devout so we attend church every Sunday we are I serve you know, part of the reason I have Mandarin Chinese is a certain religious mission for my church. That we’re gonna get to that soon. Yeah, I Yeah. Are you active in the church and are and active in my beliefs?

Yoni Mazor 8:18
All right, very cool. Okay, so you get to graduate high school, also Morgan, Utah, and what was the next station after high school straight to college or did admission

Devin Miller 8:26
Went to college for about a year. So I did a year of undergraduate before I went on the mission. So I went to Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, did that for a year set it undergraduate, and then went on the mission from there.

Yoni Mazor 8:40
Okay, so what’s your let’s start slapping the IRS on it. So what you did you have on a mission and it was straight to China was around the world.

Devin Miller 8:46
Um, so it was to Taiwan. So I went to undergraduate from 2002 to 2003. Then 2003 when certain emissions I went to Taiwan, so depending on who you asked, I won’t either his own country or part of China Taiwan.

Yoni Mazor 9:01
So what IP area or

Devin Miller 9:03
Yeah, in Thai Bay, so and Thai bay area so I was there for two years. We moved around here to several different locations with the air without my mission. So when served in different areas, it was always a

Yoni Mazor 9:14
Focus. They’re helping you helped me the committee creating jobs. Are you doing there for two years and type?

Devin Miller 9:21
Sharon, I believe so. It was most of it. We did a lot of there are different services and helped out in the community in general. And a lot of it was knocking on doors. They’re sharing what we believe seeing a

Yoni Mazor 9:31
Chinese Mandarin Chinese. Yep, exactly. I mean, I can do anyhow, the data. Yeah, what’s going on, and wasn’t already Christian there or the other faiths? What’s the landscape?

Devin Miller 9:42
Primarily is going to be Buddhism and Hinduism. So or some form of that or Taoism, so it’s generally going to be more of what would be known as typical Eastern or Asian religions. And so that would be predominantly it’s mostly atheist. It’s usually more family passed down that they practice they’re practicing in the sense that that’s what they did when they’re growing up. They don’t they’re not very active in reality, and most of them are atheists or just believe in a creator, but don’t do anything more.

Yoni Mazor 10:09
Yeah. So I’m gonna ask you a marketing question. What was your conversion rate? Your conversion rate, right?

Devin Miller 10:16
Oh, it would have been from a marketing perspective. I’m sure it would have been horrible. I mean,

Yoni Mazor 10:22
Some KPIs need a very small percentage, but every percent would, that would, that’s one big you know,

Devin Miller 10:26
So if I were to say the people that I helped bring into their bring into the church or to join our religion is probably 15 to 20. I’d have to think about it and give me an exact number. So over the space of two years, that’s what maybe not quite one a month something like that.

Yoni Mazor 10:41
It’s not so bad, but what so how many doors is your knock? That’s the

Devin Miller 10:45
I’m sure it’s in the 10s to hundreds of 1000s. So it’s Hodge’s

Yoni Mazor 10:49
1000 doors and you converted 10 to 15 was pretty strong. This is pretty Wow, this is you know, you got some grunt on you. It’s pretty impressive. All right. I guess that’s very formative. No, it’s a real thing about you gotta outer space basically because it’s a different culture, different language you knock on the door you got to you know, learn the language learn their culture to be able to say hey, I have an opportunity for you know what you perceive to be an opportunity right it’s a religious kind of a mission but it’s really like soldiers spiritual soldiers you go all the way over there and you get no you got so many knows but you kept knocking and the one that you know the few that you got Yes, I guess that probably inspired you a lot or changed your life changed their life I don’t know if you’re still in contact with them or what grew out of those relationships or anything significant.

Devin Miller 11:35
I’m not anymore I stayed in contact with him for a few years after my mission and then that’s like it’s busy schooling it’s a career you tend to just kind of not intentionally but taper off so I haven’t been in contact with them for a while but three years after I was

Yoni Mazor 11:48
Sure that you’re not going to do it probably changes a few things for them and of course their life. So after two years, we were kind of drained exhausted, or like fired off with the next thing what was your mindset? Yeah, so

Devin Miller 11:58
the way that it works with the Mormon church is you sign up and go for two years so two years is the full extent of your mission if you’re a woman they’re you know, a female is a year and a half for males is two years and once you get done you’ve certainly you’ve served your mission and then you go home back to I apologize

Yoni Mazor 12:15
For my ignorance, this is something you get paid for no like what’s a no

Devin Miller 12:19
No, I paid for my mission so no. One where you pay that you cover your expenses and so you pay him a monthly amount to cover you know, rent and food and board

Yoni Mazor 12:30
Why did Joe view what drove you to do this? I mean, take your time, take your money, and take two years to do this. What was your driver? Was it spiritual or more like you wanted to prove it to yourself? You can do it was, you know, tasting the world in a bit? What were the main ingredients internally that we’re going back in time?

Devin Miller 12:46
Yeah, it was purely spiritual. So I felt blessed I firm believer in my religion, that’s true. I’m sure everybody says their religion is true, but I’m certainly not any exception. But true and firm believer, I had a desire that I wanted to go out and share it. And so you know, came to the point where you can reach the age where they’ll accept mission papers, I didn’t even the way that it works, you know, is for the LDS church or the Church of Jesus Christ is you put it in you don’t tell them where you’re going. You don’t even know when you’re submitting, where you’re going to go. So I didn’t even know where Taiwan was. When I sent her when I said I wanted to go on a mission. I simply said, Hey, I’d like to go serve like to share the share my beliefs. And then I get a letter there saying, hey, you’ve been called to Taiwan have or have been there for two years, and then go share the Gospel. And then that’s when I went and did.

Yoni Mazor 13:34
Wow, it’s pretty, pretty wild. Pretty remarkable. Okay, now let’s, you know, thank you for sharing that. Now. I want to touch if I may, a little bit of the guests, the Taiwanese culture, you know, two years, well, and what do you make of it? What was your impression, or take I?

Devin Miller 13:47
Love it. So it’s one where it’s significantly different than the US culture, from food to language to culture to families dynamics, you know, just it’s about as opposite or I don’t know, as opposite but it’s certainly one that’s there fairly often I

Yoni Mazor 14:02
Call out of space, because it’s just so different. It’s like nothing ever since I like going to Europe, which is a few similarities are different.

Devin Miller 14:09
But I grew to love it. I enjoyed what I said, I grew to love the food, love the people love the language, you know, just a great experience. And so is one where, you know, it’s certainly culture shock when you get there and you get, you know, get your get on the island and have very little idea of what they’re saying and what’s going on and what you’re eating. And then you just grow to love it is your behavior to spend time there and they’re serving the people

Yoni Mazor 14:30
And economically or in terms of work ethics or stuff like that. And what’s the situation there in those years. This is what 2003 To 2005 Yep, they’re growing. They’re booming. They’re in a recession. What was the dynamic they’re

Devin Miller 14:44
Pretty good, they’re steady or steady economy. So I don’t know that it was booming or taking off in the exploding it wasn’t going down but it was just a steady growth economy that was pretty even keel

Yoni Mazor 14:53
Where people will love the doors you’re knocking people are well off financially or they’re kind of maybe, you know, social service. Socioeconomically they’re kind of struggling as well, you’re probably fairly

Devin Miller 15:03
Similar to like the US as far as you’ll have, you know, different parts of the country, you’ll have some like Taiwan or Taipei, it’s going to be pretty well off. And people have a good amount of income. Other places within the country are but I’d say, you know if you’re too kind of condensed where the US is, and to an island type of thing, it’s probably a similar feel.

Yoni Mazor 15:22
God, okay, so 2003 2005, you finish a mission. Once again, you had a year of college, two years of mission, what was your next step for you or the next day,

Devin Miller 15:30
So I came back picked up college where I left off so BYU is, is also it’s a, an LDS or it’s a religion. It was founded by my church. So I came back and started are picked up where I last left off, they make it pretty easy to a seamless transition. So for the next additional four years, where I did the two degrees. So I started in electrical engineering for the first year after I served in Taiwan and said, Hey, why don’t I pick up a second degree in Chinese where I’ve already spent two years learning the language. So I came back to focus primarily on as far as career-wise doing electrical engineering but then took the next four years to finish up both of those degrees.

Yoni Mazor 16:10
Got it and you picked up your fundamentals of Chinese Mandarin Chinese and the mission. We’ll do those two years.

Devin Miller 16:15
Yeah. So most of what I learned was on the mission as far as speaking language abilities, and then it was coming back and just kind of refining that and further expanding it a bit in college.

Yoni Mazor 16:25
Can you say it in Mandarin? Hello, I’m an American.

Devin Miller 16:30
How your ego was may go make more

Yoni Mazor 16:33
May go remember we may go that’s America, right? Like America. We said this

Devin Miller 16:38
Is American and may or may boy would be America. Yeah.

Yoni Mazor 16:41
My ways to go may go tell American may go. Yeah, you may go. I’m American. Omega Red. As you said, you gotta say like that. Right. Okay, very, very cool. All right. So 2009, you finish your you know, your degree and what was and sh station for them?

Devin Miller 16:57
Yeah, 2009. So finished a degree and I’m kind of coming out of college, I’m saying what do I want to be when I grow up? And it was kind of I had, I, as I was wrapping up the undergraduate, I said, You know what, I like electrical engineering, I think it’s interesting. I don’t want to be an engineer, in the sense that the typical prospect for an engineer is you work for a company for a long time, you start as a very small cog in a big wheel. If you’re lucky, you’ll move up. And eventually, when you’re working for 1520 years, you’ll have some impact on the business. I’m saying that this doesn’t excite me. And I’d rather have a bigger impact on the business and be more involved earlier on. And so I’m coming out of undergraduate saying what do I want to do and I grew up I don’t want to be an engineer, but I like engineering. And so it was kind of I was looking saying, Well, I got kind of two passions, and love startups live small businesses love kind of entrepreneurial aspect. And I also find them, you know, the legal side fairly interesting passion, especially with patents and trademarks as it relates to business. And so I’ve kind of come out saying, which do I do, which do I choose? And I said, well, rather than choose one or the other, I’m just going to do both. So kind of rather than choose one path, I just decided I’m going to split it right down the middle, go get degrees in both, and see which one I love and enjoy. And so I went off to I went to apply to various schools that offered both programs and had built an MBA a good MBA program and they had a good legal program and got

Yoni Mazor 18:18
These awesome minutes since school at BYU are already spread out.

Devin Miller 18:22
So these are spread out so I applied to BYU they’re incredibly competitive in both programs I didn’t make it into one of the programs and so I went off to Cleveland Ohio to Case Western Reserve which had good programs I was accepted into a bowl and allowed me to pursue bolted on so graduated left Provo Utah went out to Cleveland Ohio.

Yoni Mazor 18:42
Got it so 2009 until one

Devin Miller 18:44
2013 So dual degree program for the NBA and illegal degrees for years.

Yoni Mazor 18:49
So all I saw all and he did like eight years Right? Are you 2015 to 2013 four years in Utah and another four years in Ohio nine and a half years not happy because we had you before had you gone to the mission

Devin Miller 19:00
here before four years once I got back and there’s about a half because I did some things over the summer before I went off to graduate school and then four additional years so five and a half years for undergraduate four years for graduate.

Yoni Mazor 19:12
Got it. So I guess it begs the question, how are you supporting so financially? Oh,

Devin Miller 19:18
I worked during our both myself and my wife worked during that also have student loans combination of working as much as I can to keep our debt down. And then what kind

Yoni Mazor 19:26
Of jobs were we doing with all these years for non-half years?

Devin Miller 19:30
Oh, that’s a good question. I mean, I did everything as an undergraduate I did janitorial work. I did customer service where my wife worked as a nurse. So she has a nursing degree. So she worked as a janitor before she graduated, she graduated before I did then she went into nursing, and then when we went off to graduate school I started working for a law firm as a law clerk as I was going through school.

Yoni Mazor 19:52
So what’s interesting to me is that you know, it seems like these are you know, like, odd gigs, and right? Like, whatever you can get your hands on. Right you know, just to get your education done for all this extended time and you already married it guys, I guess you gotta you know, get married along with the ways. But what strikes me as interesting is the fact that you took two years off and paid for it from your pocket, it wasn’t like you can’t for money. It’s not like you’re sending, you know, this roiled church and, and the quarter Kingscourt. And this says, you know, if you go into it, everything will be provided. So it kind of expresses the dedication you had to the mission because you’re not wealthy. You know, once you got back from a mission, you’re doing janitorial work or this, you know, anything to get your hands on just to get by to survive. Nevertheless, you pay to get out and, and improve. That’s, that’s pretty, pretty serious stuff. So I find that to be very interesting. Okay. 2013. That’s when you kind of start, you know, heading out to the professional world where you get already an internship with a law firm.

Devin Miller 20:46
Yeah, so I was in Cleveland, Ohio, I had been working with a law firm, I worked for a couple of different firms out to undergrad or graduate school dealt with earning the degrees. And I was coming out and saying, Hey, I want to move back to Utah. That’s where my family is. That’s the kind of atmosphere I want to raise kids in. And so I was already planning on leaving. That’s so I was one point, I’d had a startup that was going and so that was one side of it. I was getting that startup up, we were bringing on people, and we were getting investor dollars. And then on the legal side, I was also applying for different law firms in Utah. I applied all across the country because I didn’t find one in Utah I needed a job when I graduated, why

Yoni Mazor 21:26
Are you knocking on doors, no problem, you go knocking on doors, or, you know, administrivia leeway with universities.

Devin Miller 21:33
I probably applied for, I don’t know, 1520 different law firms. And I was I’d accepted a job in Texas, and we’re about ready to go to Texas because that was a law firm. That was a good one that I’d had experience in right about the time we were making that final decision, one of the law firms that I wanted to go to in Utah extended an offer. And so we changed our plans and came back to Utah,

Yoni Mazor 21:53
God to God, but you mentioned something interesting. So you 2013 You sent into a kind of, you know, making more simple two routes, you know, your, your, your legal work, your professional work as a lawyer, but also the startup. So let’s talk to the startup for a second. What’s that about?

Devin Miller 22:08
Yeah, so startup came about so that I have to rewind the story a couple of years. So the third year in the four-year program, I was I can’t remember it was a flyer or if it was an email, but I there was an announcement saying, Hey, we’re doing a business competition where you can come do a multidisciplinary, you meet people there, you know, form groups with people you don’t know, and come up with a business idea and entered into the competition. So I went to the meeting, met some people from the group, first year we entered a product it was to make Gym Bags less smelly. It was kind of a fun idea but was never going to go anywhere. So we wrapped up that third year, the fourth year comes along, we get back together say hey, we’d like to do the competition.

Devin Miller 22:47
Again. We don’t want to go after the last year’s idea what other ideas do we have? And, you know, we came up with some really stupid ideas, and then never worked clouding self-packing boxes and other things. But where we landed was I remember as I was walking back, I started I enjoyed running. So I do a lot of I’ve done marathons and I usually run about nine, nine, and a half miles each morning. And so I got into doing marathons and I thought, hey, wouldn’t it be cool? If you had a wearable, you had a watch, they could tell you what your hydration level ones. So that was kind of the idea. Pitch it to the group. They thought it was a good idea. I built a prototype with my dad over Christmas break when I came back to Utah because he had a lot of medical device experience. And we started to build that entered in the competition to second place, which I’m still bitter about because we should have taken first. And at the end of that, we were kind of saying, Well, this is a good I thought it was a good idea. I thought it had some real merit and was worthwhile pursuing. We were all graduating everybody is going to different locations. And I said hey, I don’t think it’s going to work for us to try and do a startup when everybody’s going to be in different locations. How about I buy out all of you guys’ positions so I bought out all their positions with how many partners were there? There are three others so there are three others I take what I want from the competition we take second place I said rather than me taking the money How about you guys split it up into three ways. We’ll come to count that as my buyout

Yoni Mazor 24:04
And 20 was how much money was it if you don’t mind sharing

Devin Miller 24:08
$5,000 something like that. Okay, symbolic. Yeah. So it was there’s one where they’re gonna say well, you won’t know all the technology you’re the one that built it, we probably couldn’t do anything with it anyway. So if you’re not going to hear we you’re going to be the one that’s running it and so we might still take the money because we’re not going to be able to have any better opportunity so bought them out and I said hey, I think that’s a good competition. So are a good idea. So that’s where we started I brought a couple of people on my dad got involved a couple of other people I knew it was a lot of sweat equity, but you know, had a 20-year software programmer had my dad his alleged engineer had myself and a couple of other people that we’re joining the business and starting to grow it into the more legitimate way. Got a couple of years into it. We got to a point we started taking on investor dollars took on some of our larger investors building it out and

Yoni Mazor 24:57
If you don’t mind sharing

Devin Miller 24:59
Seven figures probably won’t get into the exact number, but it was over a million under 10 million. Yeah, somewhere in there. Yeah, it’d be

Yoni Mazor 25:06
Goodman. But at that stage, you already had a product in the market, it was still a prototype, what was the actual value? It was

Devin Miller 25:11
A fairly well-developed prototype, but it was one that still needed some testing and further development. So it was pre-launch or was it in the marketplace. Yep.

Yoni Mazor 25:21
Okay, when you raise pre-launch, not in the marketplace, but it’s still ongoing today. It’s still in the works or

Devin Miller 25:27
no, so yeah, that’s it’s a long story, but happy to share. So we took on the investor dollars, got into a stage where we had a fully functional prototype, we started testing it with college teams, collegiate, and NFL teams, and other ones. And we’re getting to the point where to then take what we have done as a very good working functioning pr

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