In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Bret Darby – Director of managed services at SellerLabs talks about The Importance of Honesty & Focusing on Data When Selling on Amazon, also more information about his life’s journey. #BretDarby #SellerLabs
About Bret Darby of SellerLabs – Charged – Exceeds expectations with energy and enthusiasm. Inspires & gives energy to those around them. Continuously Improving – Passionate about pursuing growth & continuously exploring opportunities to increase efficiency, drive change & teach others. Collaborative Team Player – Relentlessly strives to be reliable, responsive, courteous & flexible. Customer-Centric – Obsessed with understanding our customer and their perspective. Proactively advocate and deliver solutions that enhance the customer’s experience and contribute to their success.
Find the Full Episode Below
Yoni Mazor 0:06
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of prime talk today I have a special guest that I’m having Brett Darby. Brett is the director of managed services at cellar labs, seller Labs is a leading solutions platform for brands to manage their Amazon business. So Brett, welcome to the show.
Bret Darby 0:22
Hey, thank you so much for having me on. It’s great to be here.
Yoni Mazor 0:24
My pleasure. So today’s episode is going to be the story of you, right? The story of Brad Darby, you’re gonna share with us everything, you know, who are you? Where are you from? Where were you born? Where’d you grow up? As you begin your professional career, station to station until we hit the moment where you, you know, hit the world of E-commerce, and what are you doing with it today? And yeah, so without further ado, let’s jump right into it.
Bret Darby 0:46
Very cool. Where do you want to start chronologically back at the beginning? Yeah,
Yoni Mazor 0:48
That’s as if you’re writing your life story of God and the angels above you kind of looking to see the whole show of your story. Always start from the early beginning. So let’s start there. Where were you born?
Bret Darby 1:00
Awesome. I was born in a town called Kirkland, Washington. It’s right outside of Seattle. In the Pacific Northwest, my home in my heart, I’ve always loved that place
Yoni Mazor 1:11
That we’re at Costco is
Bret Darby 1:12
From, that’s where the cost comes from. Oh, yeah, that’s
Yoni Mazor 1:15
What the Kirkland brand based in where they’re based out of right. So if you guys ever shopped at Costco in the United States, or even online, if you see all the Kirkland brands, that’s the story. That’s where he’s from because the cost was based in Kirkland. So that’s a little bit of FYI, for everybody here for your information.
Bret Darby 1:30
Yeah, there’s another little business that got started there called Amazon. I don’t know if you know that one. But
Yoni Mazor 1:34
Never heard of it. Never heard of it.
Bret Darby 1:37
Super cool. Just community, I’ve always loved the Seattle area and getting to grow up, there was a tremendous experience getting to kind of get immersed in the changes in technology, the changes in the world, you know, the changes in what Amazon has done with the ability to deliver products quickly. And so I started just humble beginnings normal school, went to public school, and nothing private, nothing fancy,
Yoni Mazor 2:01
My parents, so what can industries where they’re involved with?
Bret Darby 2:04
So, my mom, my mom has worked in teaching education for pretty much her whole life. My dad has worked in many fields, but primarily in like electronics and manufacturing. But both of my parents kind of came from humble beginnings as well. Started, you know, didn’t finish college, eventually, they went and got their degrees and kind of pursued their path. But for me, it was very much just a normal American upbringing. You know, I just want
Yoni Mazor 2:31
To kind of reiterate on the Seattle and Kirkland area and in Washington, until the appearance of I guess, the and the 80s, that’s when you had the appearance of Microsoft. And Amazon’s charges started to change the dynamics towards technology. But until then, up until the 80s, I would say it was a manufacturing hub, and especially big industries, like aviation, like Boeing, it’s famous that Boeing is, is based in Seattle, it’s you know, it’s huge manufacturing, you know, organization, and around the union, all the parts and all that stuff. So it’s a big hub around Seattle and Western Washington to be able to accommodate the aviation industry, or aeronautics, all that stuff. So it’s very into manufacturing engineering. And so I assume that your father was kind of involved there. But the, you know, in the areas that when a Silicon Valley software technology kind of was born, and in the Seattle, the domain was, you know, Microsoft does have I think it was that was it early 80s. And then Amazon 1990s, five, or seven, I believe, and then the rest is history. Now, it’s a kind of, you know, its hipster. It’s upbeat, it’s techie, industry, finance, or in all the above, I got
Bret Darby 3:37
Lucky, when I lived there for 30 years. And so I got to witness that growth, I got to see, you know, the Redmond campus of Microsoft go from really nothing to this massive campus that sprawling of hundreds of acres. And it was amazing to not only just be surrounded with people who are working at these companies, and, you know, pursuing their careers there, but also to kind of watch just the overall population expand and grow. And you start to see a centralization of more people invested in these areas, all coming together, you go to a cafe, and you’re bumping into people who are working on some of the world’s most exciting problems. And I think that’s what’s so cool about those areas, whether it be Seattle, you know, in Silicon Valley, there are all these areas where people are so invested in the same problem, you get a great collaborative thought process, and you get some new ideas coming out that otherwise might have never come to,
Yoni Mazor 4:27
but you know, when the population was growing, so people were coming from all over the world or all over the states or both, or it’s a cosmopolitan right now or is it more homogenous and to a certain type of breed?
Bret Darby 4:40
Yeah, it’s all across the board. I think these tech companies have done a fabulous job of attracting top-tier talent, you know, the cream of the crop in the world. And so you’ve got people from all over coming to participate, and I think it does help kind of help both grow the community help grow the business opportunities available to everyone in the area. Yeah. But you know, to go back chronologically to the younger
Yoni Mazor 5:03
Guys, I’m back to Yeah. So this is kind of the shadow vibe of flare, which I find unique. I think I’ve mentioned a few times I was very impressed. But I’m passionate about your story of being from that place, close to my heart. Because when they were in the Amazon domino world, your experience is very interesting to me. Because you’re one of the first I made that 30 years you said, it’s not like you came after I know, people were there now, but it came from other places. But you were born and raised in 30 years. It’s amazing. So let’s go back to chronologically growing up. When you were growing up, you know, parents will you mention your mother was in education? Your father was engineering, manufacturing? What did you do with anything that was an entrepreneurial spirit? Were you trying to make money on the side? Or are you mostly focused on school sports and music?
Bret Darby 5:44
Yeah, so I had an affinity for music early on, I was just enthralled by it. I love the idea of playing guitar, piano, or drums. I love doing it with friends as well. So that was always a passion of mine. But I was fortunate to have parents who didn’t just give me anything, you know, they’ve made me earn it, they made me work for it. So starting at 12 years old, my mom made me go get a summer job. And I was working in an organic farm, picking dill, you know, harvesting shallots, literally every single thing you could do, getting it prepared to take to a farmers market and sell it on the weekend. And it was hard work. I mean, eight hour days bent over all day, pick
Yoni Mazor 6:22
It’s all up, but back then hold it well, years old.
Bret Darby 6:24
I was 12.
Yoni Mazor 6:25
That’s amazing. I think that’s a great education. That’s real life. Harnack. Yep.
Bret Darby 6:29
And that was the catalyst was music that got me started was my mom said, hey if you want that guitar, you gotta buy it yourself, go get the job, make the money. And I had to. And I remember, you know, earning the money to buy it, I still have that guitar, because it means
Yoni Mazor 6:45
You get what you get. That was a good
Bret Darby 6:46
Life lesson. It was a Yamaha Pacifica, one of their off-name brands, and then modified and replaced pickups and everything over the years. But it was, you know, the sweat equity, it was having to earn it, that made it worth it. But from that point, I gravitated to music more and more. And I saw that this, this experience of being able to collaborate with others, and find a way of being in harmony with them, you know, really trying to make something that we feel good about and sounds good or feels good to us, was a really rewarding and satisfying experience. And I kind of took that with me throughout the years and other things that I went and did. I was very fortunate in high school to get, you know, elected as a class president and get on ASB, get to go attend leadership summits and webinars and things like that, as a representation or representative of our school to learn some of these lessons and learn how people work in the psychology of groups.
Bret Darby 7:42
And, you know, how can you affect change when people don’t want to change when they’re motivated by really simple? You know, catalysts, like the pursuit of pleasure or the avoidance of pain? And how can you get people to do things effectively? And how can you get them excited about those things? So I’m very fortunate for those opportunities that were presented to me to go learn those things. Because I do feel those have helped build a foundation that’s allowed me to continue to pursue things like E-commerce with a passion and a zest for it. You know, there’s always something new. And if you can get close to the cutting edge, where you can kind of see the frontier and see the open space where nobody’s done anything yet. I think it’s really exciting because you get to use your creativity to come up with what’s going to come next, you get to have a voice or a say in that by just taking actions day today. Nice, nice. So
Yoni Mazor 8:29
I want to touch on it. So growing up, you said you got your sweat equity, I love that. You got your guitar, you develop the music, and also to kind of took leadership to the school, in high school as well. And then what I want to, I guess, touch into the university years or higher education to pursue that also, or what was the trajectory after high school?
Bret Darby 8:48
Yeah, I’ll go back a little bit, though, because I think it sets the stage. I’ve always loved working, and I’ve worked since I was 12 years old. There isn’t a year where I’ve taken time off and just said, I’m going to relax. I’ve always had a job. And
Yoni Mazor 9:01
In a nutshell, it goes over the roster of the jobs you had.
Bret Darby 9:04
Yes, you’re farming, right? Farming, I did a bunch of odd jobs. I taught guitar lessons. So doing music lessons. I worked for Bank of America for three years, I did luxury automobiles, consignment and sales. I did ski bum I was a ski bum for winter and ended up breaking my back having to go back and live with my parents couldn’t walk all sorts of craziness. And all of that taught me what matters. What do you want to get out of this? You know, because along that time, I was also dabbling with school, taking some CS courses, taking a lot of MOOCs online, just trying to find any content to engage me. You know, I knew that my mind loved problems. I loved finding them and I love trying to solve them. And so I just needed to stay engaged. So I never followed a clear path or trajectory through college just to say I’m gonna go get this degree. I started I stopped for a little while I went and did the skiing, got injured, had to come back and went back
Yoni Mazor 10:00
Getting started pursuing a broker back here means you broke your back.
Bret Darby 10:03
Yeah, l four, l two, and Lone. All of them fractured. I broke my sternum and cracked a rib. I had a lot of problems with it. So
Yoni Mazor 10:12
Oh my goodness. Okay, so hold on. So let’s slap the years on this. So what year did you go to college?
Bret Darby 10:18
It was from 2007 through 2009 ish.
Yoni Mazor 10:23
So I did about two years. But and when once you get injured 2009 2010 2009.
Bret Darby 10:28
And then I went back for a little bit right after that, and quickly realized I didn’t need the degree that the world had changed enough that the information was available. You just had to go dig and have that zest to go find it and pursue it.
Yoni Mazor 10:42
That’s when we segue so you got injured and they’re already touching 2010 You try to go back, we then we realize you don’t need higher education. What you discover was that moment
Bret Darby 10:53
Where it’s, it’s like hitting the reset button on life. You know, one minute you’re skiing down a hill having fun with friends. The very next minute, you’re in the back of a private plane that’s airlifting you to a hospital because the one you were at couldn’t care for you. Like, that’s a pretty big change.
Yoni Mazor 11:10
And what was this was when he just got what where are you? This is a Washington State.
Bret Darby 11:14
No, I was in California, Mammoth Lakes, California,
Yoni Mazor 11:17
And Florida to where we’re where they fly to. They flew me to Reno,
Bret Darby 11:21
Because they worried. Yeah, they were wearing a punctured lung. And so they, they couldn’t care for me, they sent me off. And then my parents had to come down, pick me up because I couldn’t walk, I was going to be in bed for a little while. And that was a huge opportunity to kind of rethink everything. And so were you
Yoni Mazor 11:40
Living in California back then was a part of your job because you’re a ski bum.
Bret Darby 11:46
Yep, working at the ski resort, you get a free lift ticket every day. You can ski whenever you want. I do recommend that to anyone who enjoys skiing or snowboarding. It’s so and
Yoni Mazor 11:54
Everyone’s skiing and full disclosure and everyone’s skiing might go skiing this year for, the first time. And maybe in Jackson Hall and Wyoming, which I know work that out with the team. But so you okay, you live in California or Utah, Nevada, and Reno, your parents come and pick you up and they take you back to Seattle? I mean, you’re Glen?
Bret Darby 12:12
Yep, that took me back home. I ended up spending about three months, kind of just at home couldn’t do a whole lot. I had a whole big brace and everything. And I realized, you know, a few weeks into it, this was going to suck no matter what. There was no, you know, it was too glass, you just had to do it. It was gonna hurt no matter what. And I said, Well, I can either just sit here or wait, or I can do something about it. So I started Googling, what do people do to get better from this. So I started finding my physical therapy programs and just applying them and saying, I’m going to start working out I’m gonna start trying to get myself back into a shape where I can function as a human being, I can walk, I can do everything I need to do. And that was an awesome opportunity to think about what matters in life. What do I want out of this? And I quickly gravitated to again, learning and education and trying to pursue new endeavors and new ideas, something that would challenge my brain keep me engaged, and be something that possibly could be lucrative as well. And that’s when I stumbled across eCommerce,
Yoni Mazor 13:15
Take me there. That’s when e-commerce is one what I call it, that’s when eCommerce came knocking on your door and sucked you in. And that’s it. The rest is history. So take us what happened?
Bret Darby 13:24
Yeah. So, you know, I was looking around for what I wanted to do. And I saw a couple of companies that I thought would be decent opportunities to work for applied, didn’t get the roles because they didn’t have the requisite experience. And I finally found a company that didn’t seem polished. I mean, their website was underwhelming, you know, the products collect catalog and everything didn’t seem great. And I said, wow, I can affect change. Here. I have ideas. I mean, just looking at this, I already have a dozen thoughts of ways to improve this and make it better. And I applied, and fortunately, had the interview got the opportunity, and helped grow that business on Amazon from about $3 million to over $50 million a year in revenue.
Yoni Mazor 14:08
So a lot of you jumped on. So this was 2010 or 2011.
Bret Darby 14:12
This was 2011 12 Somewhere in there.
Yoni Mazor 14:16
So for a year or two you kind of try to rehabilitate yourself right from the injury and get back on track and, and then apply to jobs. So today’s life in 2012, you land a job with that company, and they were mainly focused on selling on Amazon or E-commerce or what was that.
Bret Darby 14:32
So they were just eCommerce it was all either directly through their website or through Amazon or eBay. And you know that a couple of other channels here and there. But it was primarily focused on Amazon.
Yoni Mazor 14:43
And so when you came in no first few weeks or months at work, what do you do it? What would you do for them?
Bret Darby 14:51
So I actually had the interview, and there was another candidate who they were looking at for the job already. And I just decided you know what honesty has good got me far in life, I’m going to be as blunt and honest as I can. And I told the CEO of that company, Hey, man, I’ll take the trash out if you want. Like, I just want the opportunity to work with people on cool problems. Like, if you need little odd jobs done, I’m happy to do it. Nothing’s below me. I just want the opportunity to learn and grow and build a future for myself here. They liked that. And it resonated with them. And they said, Okay, let’s, let’s give this guy a shot. So I started out doing product photography of all things. You know, I use my dad’s camera over the years, he was into photography. I’ve been
Yoni Mazor 15:31
There done that, just for disclosure, I’ve been there done that I did. Geography. I, you back in the early days. Yeah. It’s great. It’s a good start.
Bret Darby 15:39
Yeah. And, you know, through doing that, and through just kind of, again, some sweat equity putting in the time, I started learning Photoshop better, I started learning all of the little pieces outside of actually just running the business that makes it run more optimally. And I started figuring out ways to make processes out of those, and ways to make things work a little bit smoother. And as we started to grow, we started to just pinpoint what areas needed to be changed to grow a business on Amazon. And you know, I won’t take 100% credit, there’s a bunch of people that helped collaborate to make that all happen. But I felt very fortunate to be in those rooms where the decisions were made. And
Yoni Mazor 16:17
Those years don’t moments, what was the effect of change that you saw that evolution went for within the inside Amazon?
Bret Darby 16:23
You know, a lot, you know, this was early days of sponsored products like Mike Ziggler. And you know, the first couple accounts, getting them, you know, it was an infinite product at that time. And so I got a great opportunity to jump on the ship early and see that evolution from day one. And at the same time, I had already spent some time before that dabbling as a kind of a freelancer on like Google and learning how Google Ads work.
Bret Darby 16:48
And so I got this nice contrast, of where Amazon was, where Google was, and the evolution of each of their products. And I feel like I had a great opportunity at this company, and just through my friends and colleagues, to learn that Amazon was building something similar to what Google already had. And that if you just watched their moves, you could start to see any kind of forecast of what was going to change and what you needed to do about it. You know, we’re seeing it again, with video, video is going to be the future, you know, you have to think about how I’m going to create a video to be successful on Amazon in the future. And you know, a year ago, we might not have even been talking about it very much because it wasn’t an important piece. But you can see those moves broadcasted and I got to watch everything from sponsored brands get kind of talked about in broadcast to some of the UI changes and things that happened to just improve the experience of running a business on Amazon
Yoni Mazor 17:38
One of the elements that because you mentioned you know you’re when you came in around 2011 12 into the company there were 3 million and then I guess when he left right there, they were doing 50 million so what were those areas of growth? Like was an Amazon was it eBay the website all three was a perfect triangle Delta, or mostly Amazon, and I want to start with Oh because he did some more than 10 acts. Right. It’s a 30 Next I wrote so take me there I want to touch on that. What worked out what was the explosion? It was Amazon
Bret Darby 18:09
Is Amazon it was being an early adopter of their tools, being willing to like to lean in and say okay, well, there’s
Yoni Mazor 18:17
A product or reselling or their brand are both
Bret Darby 18:21
A mixture of both we ended up having vendor accounts and three P accounts as well majority was done through three P though. Which I love I think three P is for their
Yoni Mazor 18:31
Own private label brands or brands the at the ability to buy and resell or both. Were a private label. Private Label and yeah, so sourcing was you know, domestic overseas,
Bret Darby 18:43
Overseas. Yep. Primarily out of China and a couple of other locations in Indonesia and stuff. But yeah, really strong factory relations in China. I think that is one
Yoni Mazor 18:51
The category you guys selling it or if you want to mention the name of the company. I know.
Bret Darby 18:55
I won’t mention the name Home and Kitchen now. Anybody can find it if they look me up. And now
Yoni Mazor 18:59
All my kitchen is a big boom category on Amazon. Yeah. So you were so the way you had a few here aces and products that ballooned or just being able to keep launching more and more. And that brought the volume. What was the dynamic of the volume growth?
Bret Darby 19:14
It was catalog expansion. Yeah, you know, definitely going deeper in specific categories with products that were already doing well, thinking of ways to broaden the appeal as well, or the functionality of products. But for the most part, it was expansion. It was looking for areas that are untapped or underutilized and saying, what can we do here to differentiate we had some formulaic ways of thinking about what products mattered and how to make them effective in the marketplace.
Yoni Mazor 19:39
Yeah, so you can basically from you know, a clean slate and then you started to kind of touching all the elements and all the functions, and over time, what did you discover you excelled at? What was your legacy superhero for them with your performance?
Bret Darby 19:53
You know, I think it’s a couple of things. Number one was ads. I’ve always gravitated to them. I have a lot of fun. Running them. And it’s very engaging to me to try to figure out the story behind the why, you know, I love being able to dive into account and put the pieces together and then solve it and say, This is why this is the rationale, here’s the opportunity going forward, my brain just gravitates to those types of problems. If I can find that nobody else has a solution, and I can find one, you can bet I’m gonna be thinking about that
Yoni Mazor 20:22
Problem. Yeah, you’re in the perfect space. That’s amazing. Yeah. And what else besides advertising.
Bret Darby 20:26
Beyond that, I think it’s a willingness to be very candid, and be very direct and honest about what you’re doing. You know, we oftentimes, as product developers, or designers, as in like a sole co-founder type situation, you’re treating these products like they’re your baby, you’re going to spend a lot of time, you know, protecting them from the honest harsh truths of the world. And I found that I was open to just saying, No, even if I’ve done my best effort today, I shouldn’t be able to critique that tomorrow, I should be able to learn from that and recognize that it wasn’t perfect. And having that type of attitude applied to your products, allows you to cut things with more ease, and not drag a product through a really slow growth cycle that maybe just isn’t going to work.
Yoni Mazor 21:10
If I can understand you correctly, you’re kind of saying well, in other words, be more data-driven with this, leave less room for emotions, this is in technology base database, data, data doesn’t lie, the data is available, you got to harness it the right way that tells you where the demand is, what they’re looking for, what the, you know, keywords, you know, traffic, all that stuff, it’s all there, it’s less about the arts, it’s more about what does the consumer want, in there’s so much data, that’s what’s amazing with the Amazon platform, that the use of data and analytics, to be able to formulate all together and create a real brand.
Yoni Mazor 21:45
And then a real, because that’s what they want. That’s the engagement, they’re telling you. This is the magic, we want that product, right. So you gotta be able to provide their product, and in a very, you know, straightforward way, but of course, if the product is well designed, performs well, and there’s you know, a good touchpoint, and there’s a good website that is gonna resonate, or everything else will become, you know, that harmony that you want. And over there, there’s room for creativity, but you gotta know what you need to launch, how to launch it, how much is spent on it, if there’s even demand, if the credit the most beautiful, artistic product in the world, you’ve invested endless resources, but nobody wants it. There’s zero demand, they have two options, and either create demand, meaning it will be innovative groundbreaking. Maybe you try but after you try and see there’s nothing there, you got upset, cut your losses, and move on something like that. So that’s kind of a, what you’re referring to. But you know, that being brutally honest, right?
Bret Darby 22:38
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s the data-driven mindset. But also, something you said in there that resonates is it’s the harmony, it’s harmony between all of those pieces, you can over-invest in photos upstream and have the best photos in the world, but no strategy to promote and get your product seen and fail. So it’s about balancing those inputs and making it a harmonious, you know, equation. And I feel like that’s one of my strengths has been able to look at those pieces and say, well, your price might be a little bit high. But you can negotiate that down in the future, here’s where your strengths are. Let’s lean on those a little bit more and see if we can get overcome that one deficiency by using these other strengths that we already have.
Yoni Mazor 23:17
Got beautiful stuff. Okay, so you started there, let’s say 2011. Right. And what was the next station for your stay there? Or what do you do after
Bret Darby 23:26
Stayed there for a long while, I spent some time kind of solo doing my own FBA as well. Just trying to see if that’s really where I wanted to be.
Yoni Mazor 23:36
And you know, in other words, you launch your product, your brands.
Bret Darby 23:39
Yeah. Well, I was doing mainly OA and RA. Retail arbitrage online arbitrage. Yeah, yeah. But I wasn’t necessarily, you know, just looking on Alibaba and finding the commodity I was looking for, like the narrowish niche of this random thing. So for example, I found a book that wasn’t in production anymore, wasn’t available, and had a premium price. And so I just use the price tracker to tell me when that price was high. Then I found the manufacturer who initially printed it in China, and made a special request to buy some copies from them that they had in old bucks, they sent me like 25 copies, and I was able to go sell those for 200 bucks a pop. And no one else even knew about the supply. All I did was continue to track down that rabbit hole until I found somebody that had some of these. I knew they were in existence, but not everyone was looking for that little opportunity. So very lucrative in the short term, but unscalable to have to find that specific of a product. Yeah.
Yoni Mazor 24:36
My question to this was, once you find a supplier, you’re not able to arrange a constant supply of this or,
Bret Darby 24:42
Yeah, that’s the hard part. Yep. And, you know, I realized through that whole journey, because I tried dabbling in other stuff, you know, trade from stores buying online from Alibaba and stuff. I realized that that wasn’t something I was passionate about, that I wasn’t enjoying spending my time outside of work on those things. I would much, much rather just run ads for people. And that led me to sell it Labs is looking at what I enjoyed about the process and saying, Where am I really strong? And where can I thrive? And how can I build something from this that can help grow a business and scale?
Yoni Mazor 25:15
So all so your 2011 until one 2018 that’s when you transition this a ladder? To 2018? Yep, yeah. 2018. And then those seven years you were with that eCommerce company, once again, the growth was phenomenal, from 3 million a year to over 50 million a year, you kind of started from the bottom, you know, the whole spectrum, discover what you excel in what you succeed in, you know, create your core fundamental and abilities within eCommerce, and 2018 we transition into cell labs, what was the master for you? What was the challenge? What was the expectation? What was their expectation, take us there.
Bret Darby 25:48
So I had always worked on the brand side, I always spent time, you know, I ran the advertising for a vendor account, ran it for a three P account, I did it myself, but I never really done this at scale with a multitude of brands. And that was what got me super excited was looking at being able to learn even quicker. You know, it’s great when you can sit down with a CEO and C suite and say, hey, what did we learn from this? What did we learn from all of our product launches this year, it’s way better when you can do that times 100. Because you’re going to learn a lot more, you’re going to start to see trends in a different light. And that was one of the big selling points for coming to seller labs. Beyond that, it was the people. We have an amazing gr