In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Rael Cline - Co-Founder & CEO of Nozzle - talks about how to calculate and increase the value of Amazon customers, also more information about his life's journey. #RaelCline #Nozzle
About Rael Cline of Nozzle -
Amazon makes it especially hard to access, interpret and utilize invaluable datasets, leaving sellers lost without any real insights into who their customers actually are or how they purchase. Amazon sellers are hindered in their ability to reach customers, deliver and optimize advertisements, and ultimately, make sales.
That’s why here at Nozzle, we’ve taken note of these shared painful experiences and combined them with our world-class AI expertise to create a product specifically designed to make selling on Amazon easier.
Yoni Mazor 0:05
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of prime talks today I have a special guest that I'm having Rael Cline Rael is the co-founder and CEO of a nozzle, which is a really interesting platform solution for Amazon sellers to understand their customers who are buying from them. So it's cool, really innovative. We're going to touch on that during the episode. But for now, Rob, welcome to the show.
Rael Cline 0:26
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Yoni. It's great to be here.
Yoni Mazor 0:29
Our pleasure. Our pleasure. Thanks for your time. So today's episode is going to be the story of you the story of Robert Klein, you're going to share with us everything. Where are you? Yeah.
Rael Cline 0:39
In, in listening to previous episodes, and all that you go into a lot of detail about people's sort of biography, which is great. But also realize I've had to brush up on my history and certain dates and try to be consistent. So that
Yoni Mazor 0:53
The whole life story, yeah, so yeah. So that being said, we're going to share with us, Canada, the idea of where you are from, where did you grow up? Where do you go to school? How did you begin your professional career and station to station until we hit where we are today in the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let's jump right into it.
Rael Cline 1:11
Sounds good. Cool. So if you're struggling to place the accents, it's South African. So I spent the first Gosh, about 2324 years of my life in South Africa, from Johannesburg. So I was born into a family of four I have an older brother, and my father started as a financial advisor working sort of, I guess, at a big insurance company. And it kind of struck out on his own when I was pretty young.
Yoni Mazor 1:44
This company was international, just national and
Rael Cline 1:47
Well, it's Liberty light, which is international. So it's got a presence here in the UK as well.
Yoni Mazor 1:52
I think they also hear Liberty they have commercials here Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.
Rael Cline 2:02
So yeah, what people, like I guess I think corporate wanted to kind of, do his own thing very early on with young kids. Right. And that's always like the big entrepreneurial risk, of course. And so he took that as I was, but yeah, at a pretty early age and you know, growing up I guess he was very obviously Careful what you share with your kids, but some of them maybe when I was a teenager, that kind of thing, he would also share some of the issues he's having at work right and so kind of get exposure to some of the client problems that he's helping resolve or even moral dilemmas I guess in business that you'll come across and trying to fight for insurance claims for your clients against big corporates and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I kind of got a good flavor of what it means to work on your own the sorts of issues that come up, and just wide exposure to business through him was
Yoni Mazor 2:51
Is he like an agent that had his location and office like a franchise? Or?
Rael Cline 2:56
No, it wasn't? Yeah, so in the beginning, it was definitely like an employee riding on liberty and doing his thing, but then on his own, he was completely independent. So that is you know,
Yoni Mazor 3:10
I think yeah, under the umbrella of this big corporate insurance company
Rael Cline 3:17
Had to have to find his own you know, customers and build the reputation and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And so yeah, not easy. But yeah, he's done well and price carved into different types, I guess of financial service, advisory type work, and all of those sorts of things. Diversify the revenue stream so yeah, just watching this is
Yoni Mazor 3:37
Like, let me just kill FYI. Johannesburg is more like the New York City of South Africa. Oh, that's more like the leisure town or like the Ma'am, if you like.
Rael Cline 3:50
Most of the GDP of South Africa will happen in Johannesburg and Cape Town. Cape Town is more comparable to Miami, shall we say?
Yoni Mazor 3:59
Cape Town has more leisure more like Miami and Johannesburg more like the financial?
Rael Cline 4:04
Exactly. Exactly. So in our summer holidays, Southern Hemisphere has fished around on summer holidays, December and January. And sort of most of Johannesburg descends upon Katana captain's do not like that, of course. But yeah. So right now, the January, my Facebook and social Easel full of amazing beach pictures.
Yoni Mazor 4:26
Yeah, so now we're freezing in the winter here in the northern hemisphere where they're having a good summer time there. Okay. So your father is basically on his own and you know, carrying his weight and trying to be successful in business. And what about yourself when you were growing up? Were you involved with anything that was an entrepreneurial spirit, you're trying to make money on the side by yourself nice things are just the money.
Rael Cline 4:44
Yeah, I mean, I mean, he just really, I guess the value of money. There's always kind of like incentive schemes around deposits. For instance, would say, if you go out and earn money, I will help contribute as well extra to sort of top it up with a certain amount of price. So it's really kind of easily hidden and incentivizes me, I guess, to understand all this stuff and set up for whatever I wanted to get some employees, or at the time was Magic the Gathering cards. Right, like 1213 that kind of stuff. So yeah, I guess kind of instills the values of hard work and saving patients and all of that sort of things. So it goes with the entrepreneurial stuff. I mean, there were certainly.
Rael Cline 5:22
I mean, it's interesting is maybe there's definitely one, I guess, a strand of entrepreneurial things, but there's also just, generally speaking, I would, you know, have a wide range of interests, and both my parents would be pretty open about it. Like if, for instance, I'd come to regret this. But if I pursued magic for a while, like literally, you know, magic tricks and climbing started that I went for lessons. And so, you know, even though most of these things were fairly ultimately here, I didn't feel that for that long. My parents were encouraging them to say like, you know, this is another one of your fears so they piqued my curiosity and encourage that.
Rael Cline 6:02
And I think that's important. In just sort of a from like, a parenting point of view, but be just generally me trying to figure out what is it that I want to do ultimately, right, and so, so there are lots of different kind of hobbies and things that I took on terms of entrepreneurial stuff, there were things within high school around finally, doing like spread betting ultimately, which was pretty funny. So what does that what do you call that be called a spread betting? So that's like, essentially betting on sports matches and outcomes, right. And so we would run a book, ultimately, our bets for football, or soccer, I guess, in the US, for the English Premier League, for cricket for rugby. And we're competing with like lunch money to extract money, right? Like people try by
Yoni Mazor 6:55
You guys like in prison, you know? Yeah, free lunch.
Rael Cline 6:59
Yeah. It's funny, because I was like, offsets equal like, two to one odds on this team winning and then we will offset it perfectly on the other side, just to create liquidity ultimately, get the word out and get the liquidity guy
Yoni Mazor 7:15
Working-age generally, just the one that does the data analytics, or you just do the bank. What are you all three?
Rael Cline 7:20
Yeah, kind of all three, right? You got to be an integrated operation in those days. And then, funnily enough, we had a few teachers in our sports books, which is quite funny. But
Rael Cline 7:31
Yeah, so yeah. Nothing, I guess, Major, in terms of like, I guess revenue or cash or whatever, but suddenly just kind of,
Yoni Mazor 7:42
Yeah, the creator, somebody asked organization that involves its mathematical nature and
Rael Cline 7:48
How you acquire customers. How do you also want to say, I guess below the radar in many cases?
Yoni Mazor 7:56
Okay, got it. So this is the environment growing up. So let's go into the moment where I guess you will graduate high school and go to a more elevated education. So to decide for you.
Rael Cline 8:08
So I went to a university in Johannesburg. It's a bit of a long name. It's called the University of Witwatersrand or, as they call it, so I got to spell that. Yeah, it's VIP boxes, run W it w a t e r s.
Yoni Mazor 8:25
Name or German? What is that?
Rael Cline 8:27
That's Afrikaans, actually, as a Dutch derivative? Ultimately? Yeah, it's one of them, I guess, official languages of South Africa. And estimate.
Yoni Mazor 8:37
Yeah, a lot of people's history in South Africa. But as far as I understand, the kind of the Dutch was a Dutch colony, and sometimes a British colony, and then that apartheid and then the magenta and the whole aberration. So you got it.
Rael Cline 8:51
That's, that's what African history in about 10 seconds.
Yoni Mazor 8:57
Is the Dutch dialect that is unique to South Africa?
Rael Cline 9:00
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a derivative of Dutch but it's its sort of unique thing, etc., etc. Yeah. University poetry. Yeah. Which is not the case. But so yes, I went to the kind of local university there. I started with in America, your quarter kind of liberal art, sort of undergrad. Right. So that is history, politics. Yeah, the sorts of those sorts of subjects. I did that for a year, and then actually switched to a kind of commercial stuff. So finance and economics, are kind of a big switch.
Rael Cline 9:40
I enjoyed, I enjoyed all of that stuff around the sort of history and I guess Politics and International Relations and all those sorts of subjects. But I kind of just felt that one's more of a harder skill set. So yeah, I went on to onto finance and economics and this is much more quantitative, you know, all those sorts of things. And so this is, I guess, a very different part of the brain. But I was very happy there, right? I did a full four-year undergrad in a whole lot of quantitative type modeling around. Yeah, basic economics and finance, I then did, I ended up going kind of doubling down in finance. And so I ended up teaching and lecturing final year undergrads in finance, and publishing papers. And so I was kind of, at that point, considering a Ph.D. in doing in finance, and I didn't do it, which you know, respect is a great decision. I took a job at a company called a financial advisory company.
Yoni Mazor 10:46
So let me capture this moment when I capture this moment. So this is when you kind of finish off your education. And then you head into the business world, your professional career. So what you were at?
Rael Cline 10:56
Yeah, this is the point I have to look up on LinkedIn. Right. So this is, this is. Yeah, this is that
Yoni Mazor 11:01
There is no bar or you can move between the years.
Rael Cline 11:05
Yeah, sure. So this is about 2008. Basically.
Yoni Mazor 11:11
2008, you graduate, you head into the business world and your first job in the professional world. This is, you know, being a consultant for a financial firm. Yeah.
Rael Cline 11:21
For Yeah, so it's a financial consultancy. So I worked on, the government oil and gas company, a lot of their financials. So I do a lot of the financial modeling. And just, I guess, advising them on certain sort of strategic things that they should do based on the outcomes of their financial modeling. The company is called Petro South Africa, Petro USA. And so yes, up in the weeds of Excel, basically, right, and formulas and all of that sort of stuff. So, I mean, it was, it was really good in some ways, like number one, I would get exposure to senior management at like, an enormous company, which is great, and seeing how people operate, what they're incentivized by, you know, all of that sort of stuff. But it also made me come back to this team a little bit later on. But it also gave me a sense of my impact was pretty much limited to a spreadsheet, right? And advisory in general, you're out,
Yoni Mazor 12:16
I want you to, if possible, take us a little bit into the spreadsheets, the dynamics, and just a little flavor. Yeah.
Rael Cline 12:24
Yeah, these are super heavy present spreadsheets. So oil and gas are kinds of a parallel universe, right? Like, you've got to figure out what the probability is of extracting the stuff out of the ground in the first place, what the external oil price is, and whether it's worth your while, therefore, to go and do all of that sort of stuff.
Yoni Mazor 12:45
Here, so for Amazon sellers, we call market research, should I produce this product in the marketplace or not? Yeah. What's, what's the price selling in the market? What's going to be a few months from now even a year or two from now, what are the sourcing costs are the cost extraction? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Rael Cline 13:05
I would argue, I would argue it's a little bit closer, perhaps to the vendor model, because you don't have control over the price. The oil prices oil price, right? That's true. But you can sell it that. But yeah, so and then off the back of that, yeah, just modeling out different scenarios of if this happens, then you should do this. If it doesn't happen, you should do that. But you should still consider doing this regardless, for instance, right? So like,
Yoni Mazor 13:27
Especially being a wonderful machine. What kind of intellectual work of brilliance did it need from you or require from you or your team? For example, I just want to capture that essence, if there's any, if not, if it just pretty much, you know, pressing one, and that's fine. You can just show it.
Rael Cline 13:41
Yeah, I mean, there's the ability to justify your modeling in the first place. So what assumptions are you making in this model? And if I change this assumption, or tweak it slightly, you know, am I going to get dramatically different results? In which case, it's not a robust model, right? I mean, as we know, from this, I guess, epidemic modeling, to make it maybe a little bit more relevant that a tiny change in assumption can result in a completely different outcome, then it's kind of like, well, you know, that's not their purpose. Like, I can't rely on that sort of stuff. But
Yoni Mazor 14:11
You got to present it and protect it in a way where there are still holes in it. But if you covered as many holes as possible, so it's as airtight as possible. So there are a lot of errors.
Rael Cline 14:22
And you'd be presenting a range of outcomes, right? It's not you're saying, this is the number, right? It's kind of like, well, I'm kind of 85% certain that it's between this number and that,
Yoni Mazor 14:32
Right? It's more like, five or six scenarios, you know, the possible scenarios and different outcomes. And the board, whoever's, you know, the top management saying, Okay, well, with even with all these five or six scenarios, we feel we can deal with this or we can be challenged with this, or we should go for it. Right, right. So it's kind of irrelevant. Yeah.
Rael Cline 14:49
Yeah, absolutely. And we were a very small company. So I mean, of course, there would be somebody checking my work, but it's not someone that's going very deep into the formulas and you know, checking. I haven't screwed something up basically until
Yoni Mazor 15:02
Now until you sit at the
Rael Cline 15:04
Audit. Yeah, exactly. I'm still trying to figure out Yeah, exactly.
Yoni Mazor 15:07
Oh, good. Okay, so, understand the elements now bear with us. Thank you for sharing that. So how long have you seen the station? Or what was the trajectory within this company?
Rael Cline 15:15
Yeah. So that was about those about two years. And then I went back that two things, I went back to lecturing at the university. I mean, that's just part-time, right? That's because I just found it super stimulating. I was still kind of toying with the idea of a Ph.D.
Yoni Mazor 15:29
What are you lecturing is mostly on the financial things? Yeah, so I'm going to find out if you if I if you share with us,
Rael Cline 15:35
Yeah, sure. So it was called essentially capital budgeting. And that's the idea of valuation at the end of the day, right. So how do I value a company? Well, how do I forecast the cash flows? How do I bring back all those future cash flows into today's monetary terms, and therefore arrive at a valuation? What are the different ways to value a company, all that sort of stuff, right, so kind of similar to what I was doing anyway, at that student, their former job, but and I really enjoyed it, I mean, interacting with, you know, with the students, and I always say, like, I, I enjoy, I enjoy teaching, I very much enjoy teaching? But I almost work off the assumption that people want to be there in the first place. Like I would find it pretty difficult teaching, maybe first-year undergrads who feel that they just have to be there, it's compulsory, cause
Yoni Mazor 16:27
They don't realize how they got to that chair, like, how did I get, because this is
Rael Cline 16:31
already this is finally an undergrad, it's kind of tilted a lot for people who kind of want to be there and are engaged and not just doing the bare minimum, they're kind of reading the newspapers and seeing, you know, stuff to talk to me about and all that sort of stuff. So I thought there was, there was also no, super rewarding. And as
Yoni Mazor 16:48
I started coaching, this was one thing I found interesting was that you deal with all this valuation of companies and future cash flows. So because you lectured about that in university nevertheless, I might be going outside here, but I think it's maybe interesting if you have an interesting answer for us. What's going on with all this? You know, the brand aggregators in the E-commerce and Amazon space, and just the valuation is from, you know, as far as you can see from your angle, and insight, do you want to share with us about that? Is it? Is it going in the right direction? Or is it there's the multiple started to like to another like seven plus? So yeah, share with us about that?
Rael Cline 17:21
Yeah, it's, it's crazy. We worked with five or six aggregators. We'll get to all of that later. But yeah, I mean, and it's interesting because I've got quite a lot of knowledge on sort of the Amazon domain. But I've also got quite a lot of knowledge on how to value companies and all of that sort of side as well. So I can sort of work both sides. Yeah, I mean, what I think is going on the multiples are, have increased a lot, and it's becoming a lot harder to justify this high multiple. And we've got our unique take on the nozzle to help with that valuation. But the opportunity is still there.
Rael Cline 17:56
At the end of the day, a lot of it, again, if this company, if these companies exist in a spreadsheet, you're arbitraging a bit of a multiple between if I buy all of these companies at a, I don't know, 5x EBIT on multiple, I can see that if I exit to a much bigger private equity company or I list on you know, the on the exchanges, they're trading at a seven or 10x Multiple, for instance. And so there's still quite a lot of room. To play with that. Ultimately, the gap is getting much harder. And I think a lot of the aggregators are finding it. Beyond the spreadsheets, it's a very different world,
Yoni Mazor 18:33
Right? You only touch two stations, what about keeping and making this a cash cow and paying off all the debt? Or, you know, there's no evidence?
Rael Cline 18:41
Yeah. Interesting. So if you look at a little bit in the weeds here, but if you look at they're basically like leveraged buyouts, right? So in the late 80s, there was a whole sort of new phenomenon operators. Yeah. KKR, doing mergers and acquisitions. Exactly. I'm doing moa. Right, and which is, whatever 80% of the deal will be financed by debt. And so you're buying companies that are very cash generative, that you can easily pay off the debts that would be selling junk bonds, it was called in the late 80s, Michael Milken, and all that sort of stuff that happened.
Rael Cline 19:14
And so they're doing it's somebody's exercise state, right, which is a leveraged by us. And so your returns can be juiced because of the high very high sort of debt component, 80 odd percent of the total deal size, etc., etc. Except the issue is, you've got to be certain that you can pay off their debts. And the problem that a lot of sellers were having, particularly in q4, where, you know, most of your sales would happen is all the supply chain issues would come in. And if you're having stomach issues, in particular, that's so bad on Amazon and more than almost anywhere else, because you just, you know, your product doesn't exist. Almost if, if you don't have to start to just live down the rankings, and then that jeopardizes your ability to pay off the debt. And so these
Yoni Mazor 19:56
Are the words the model sees how volatile it is. It's not there. Tightest, not that firm because it's so reliant on components or maybe not even.
Rael Cline 20:05
I would not be surprised if, you know, the financial modeling didn't even take this sort of stuff into accounts right on especially for like, obviously, if you started aggregating with COVID, or supply chain stuff, sure, you can kind of do scenario analysis there. But for the ones who raised a whole lot of money and had a whole business plan, perhaps sort of pre-COVID and pre-sort of the supply chain, you probably wouldn't even be modeling the scenario of like stuck issues. And what it would mean, you know, throughout a slug for this time, or, or even on a cash basis, where I have to order my inventory, other than buying something on it, so I do that, what does that mean for my cash flow? So yeah, there's a lot of there are a lot of complications,
Yoni Mazor 20:44
but I just realized something funny, or when you're listening to what you're saying is that the pandemic had, had gave given birth to a lot of the aggregators, because it was so much thrust into E-commerce, but also might be the death because of all the supply global supply chain issues, where they can't manage the cash flow, cash flow, and they've been crunched out, and the rankings are just dropping. So they lose income to the business and the ability to generate business and generate sales. So that's kind of almost like a double-edged sword.
Rael Cline 21:11
Yeah, absolutely. And I've realized kind of two things as well, like, from how do you get a lot of the aggregators would be focused on the cost-cutting side post-acquisition? Right? So how do I grow this company? Well, at least on the sort of profit side, it's about, it's about looking at the cost side of the equation, right? It's how do I streamline these things, how to streamline the supply chain, get better prices, or centralized teams that operate across most of the company or the brands that I own. And so things get a lot cheaper, when you're getting to grow the revenue that becomes a lot harder. And I think certainly, some of the mistakes we've seen in the aggregator space are the early days of it. When you buy the business, the owner of the business doesn't stay on, right, so there's the knowledge transfer done on the mat
Yoni Mazor 21:55
Might be gone, which is vital for the growth and the trajectory.
Rael Cline 22:00
Yeah, exactly. It's like really understanding the ins and outs, of the Amazon universe and all the quirks that it has, that knowledge transfer doesn't quite happen. And so when you're looking at growing the business other than cost-cutting, then that can be a challenge as well, if you don't have that knowledge transfer, so but we've seen that change, right, we've seen that change, we we've seen a lot of the models now on how they do deals would be okay, you can stay on for a customer for two years, you will participate in somebody's upside, right, if you hit certain targets, like your analysis, whatever it may be, absolutely so and I'm which I think is a lot healthier, that helps me with a knowledge transfer, they've got skin in the game, like that's just sort of a much, much healthier model.
Rael Cline 22:36
We've also seen a, you know, in the beginning, again, it was like, I don't know, 80% of your business needs to come from Amazon. Now, when people are to justify these high multiples, they're going to have to grow a lot bigger to justify them. So they're looking, you know, how does, what is this FTC potential, what are the other channels and all of that stuff, or, ultimately, some of the really good strategies are just focused on, ultimately, I'm buying and creating an audience, right. And so if I can create an audience that if I buy another brand, or I'm launching new products in the future, I've got a readymade list of like a sort of people to go market to right. And that's just
Yoni Mazor 23:18
An opportunity to create a brand that resonates with consumers and you grow your fan base and become more iconic than the other if you're
Rael Cline 23:24
Much more you're selective on the sorts of companies you want to be buying don't have their brand building opportunity. And number two, is it a similar sort of product to my existing customer base that I have across all my brands so that I can go to some of the cross-sales? Absolutely. Yeah, it's, we look at it as and we'll come back to this we look at that as reducing your customer acquisition costs, right? How much do I have to pay to acquire a new customer? But hey, if I've got you know, a long list of existing customers that I can go you know, market to or something like that, then yeah, you're in a good spot.
Yoni Mazor 23:55
Got him breathing very nice and such I want to go back to your storylines, just so the capsule, what you said about the eighth-graders, in a nutshell, you know, there are issues with the model, there's volatility, but if somebody you know, there's some of the greatest play, right, there's still much room and justification for these multiples, even the replacement of multiple multiplications. Yeah, definitely. There's a play on the equity and valuation side of the company by five by seven. But later on, you'll be able to sell out a 10 or 15, or 20, if you hit the exchanges and stuff like that. So yeah. Patience is pretty valuable.
Rael Cline 24:30
Yeah, one of the last points on this, I guess, is depending on how big you want the brand to be. But some of the lessons from the DDC world are kind of like, you know, what are the limits of just doing it online. So you know, the last few years you've seen a lot of DTC brands moving to brick and mortar because they've kind of reached the ceiling of what they can do, you know, on Shopify, and through Facebook marketing or whatever their traditional customer acquisition channels are, and so they're doing deals with physical in-store type. It has to do that right. And so, and again, that's very, very different to how you think about kind of the Amazon side. And you know, the sort of a lot, a lot of the hands-off side and logistics and everything else. And so, you know, it's a very different skill set. And if you, if you buy, if you justify a purchase on diversifying, you know, we're going to do dc, we're going to do brick and mortar, that's a hell of a challenge. It's doable. And there's going to be a lot of, you know, aggregators that succeed in that, but it's, I would say, harder than people think.
Yoni Mazor 25:29
Right? So you're saying that though the aggregators will crack through that wall and be able to, you know, grow from outside from, basically, from E-commerce into a brick and mortar will also trailblazer and change the trajectory and the whole model, the whole thesis. So to be continued? There will be interesting developments coming out in the future. So that's a valid point.
Rael Cline 25:46
Yeah. Especially if valuations keep increasing, right? Like, how do you justify the valuation? Well, you have to get to more customers?
Yoni Mazor 25:53
Yeah, there are more lanes? Yeah, more or less to get to the customers and trailblaze into other dimensions. Okay, so 2010, you transfer, you know, you were in between, I guess you were working for the oil company. And you will go back to the lecturing a little bit, and what happened?
Rael Cline 26:06
Yes. And then and then I was also doing work for a private equity company, right. So actually, I was doing the models for all these leveraged buyouts, all the stuff that we've been talking about, these are very different companies that are buying. So these were, in a way, kind of boring businesses, but like really good businesses. So I don't know waste disposal companies or you know, stuff that has a pretty predictable cash flow, that if you can just, you know, buy it out, put a lot of debt on there, pay off the debts and focus on the cost side of the business, again, very similar to model what we see now on the aggregator site, you could do very, very well out of that.
Rael Cline 26:40
So again, I was kind of existing, these companies have existing spreadsheets for me and saying, Well, here's the scenario and this price, and if you do this to the cost side, you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, very much on the valuation side, very much on the leveraged buyout side, a very successful well known, I guess, fund, private equity fund in South Africa, blank, mostly South African companies, some of the Atlanta job, the name, yeah, ethos, ethos, private equity, ethos, private equity.
Rael Cline 27:09
So then, in 2010, I left South Africa to go study for a master's in finance at Cambridge University in the UK. So this was again, so I'm very much in the finance world at this point, right? Very deep in the finance world. So this was a fantastic opportunity I mean, the truth is, I had wanted to leave South Africa for quite some time I wanted to I suppose I didn't have to commit to going spend the rest of my life in a particular place. But I certainly wanted to get out of South Africa for a while I just thought about usual things around I want to expand my horizons. London has always been a big destination of mine. I have it's easy for me. I have a dual passport, right? I have a British passport as well as the South Africans. Those
Yoni Mazor 28:00
Parents want to be apprentices British. Yeah.
Rael Cline 28:03
My father's father was Welsh. Yeah, that's since the British passport. And I mean the big thing for me is professional to just Yeah, I guess to be around, I'll put
Yoni Mazor 28:18
London has a major financial capital at one of the most major financial capitals of the world, you're going to finance. Cambridge is a big, huge, humongous opportunity that people cut their arms off just to get it. So yeah, the ability mentally and intellectually to be eligible. And also Yeah, to British passports. Oh, live for you. So you picked up? Yeah,
Rael Cline 28:35
Yeah. And I loved it. Like it was a pretty small number of people, it was like 30 to 33 people. And I think there must have been about 25 nationalities. So like, read it, and then make a point of it being super International. So I got to learn about you know, all different parts of the world and different types of people, all of that sort of stuff. And it was just an incredible, incredible experience. When you go, essentially, because like, Mike,
Yoni Mazor 29:02
How long was the program a few years?
Rael Cline 29:04
There was one year as a Master's, it's a one-year master's, so
Yoni Mazor 29:07
May 2010 2011.
Rael Cline 29:09
Correct. And my attitude, my attitude there was you can either go there to maximize your marks, right, I want to get the highest grades or whatever it is, or, which was my view at the time was, Hey, I am there to kind of enrich myself in in as many ways as possible, so get involved in all the different clubs and societies that it has. And I'm not there to just get the best possible grades, right. And so at that point, I kind of made the decision that I'm not going to go down the Ph.D. route. Otherwise, it's very different. And I'll be involved in all sorts of things from like. The big thing is kind of the Cambridge Union and that's where they get kind of guest speakers like world-renowned speakers and also Cambridge union who say, yeah, yeah, the Cambridge Union is the main like debating I guess
Rael Cline 30:00
So but I get like absolute world-class people, anything from like, you know, military commanders to artists and poets or whatever
Yoni Mazor 30:08
You want, you want to be a part of it. Yeah,
Rael Cline 30:11
I mean, you got to attend out and, you know, hang around with those sorts of in those circles and all that. So for me, it's just like just expanding my, you know, a worldview and everything else, as opposed to staying in, you know, in the library of trying to crack the best, the best grades. Which, in retrospect, for me, is still the best decision, I
Yoni Mazor 30:30
Think, yeah, definitely wants to leave an opportunity to do something universal. Level and highest level. So
Rael Cline 30:36
yeah, and funnily enough, like, out of the subjects that I have a choice to study, I studied, basically everything that did not apply to what I ended up doing. Everything to do with like financial trading, and I'm a psych about right, I'm terrible. And I don't have an interest in that all sorts of other things, weird worlds, like mathematics, or statistics or whatever. And in the finance stuff, again, I don't think I'm particularly great. I would, I would rely on myself to kind of produce something brilliant. And everything that would have been relevant, like venture capital, for instance, I didn't, I wasn't even interested, right. I was just like, yeah, it's just funny, completely wrong choices. But yeah, so I graduated in the summer of 2011. And at the time, it was an incredibly difficult time to get a job in finance. So what was going on at that time, in what was called the European sovereign debt crisis? So 2008, we all know, credit crunch and everything else that happens with 22,008. But what happened three years later, particularly in Europe, is a lot. There were a lot of deaths on the country's ability to pay for that
Yoni Mazor 31:46
Greece crackdown, right? That's
Rael Cline 31:51
Exactly. And so the whole finance sector was just completely screwed, right? Like for me, I wanted to get a job in London, in finance, all that kind of stuff in private equity, again, like what I'd been doing, but it wasn't even a question of like, it wasn't even a question of your first or second choice of company. It was a question of, whether I can't even get into private equity. Maybe I could do insurance. And for me, it was I was just like, No, right? I'm not I'm not going to do this. And so this was a pivotal point for me because this was the point at which I got out of finance. So you know, I'm so sort of tunnel vision, finance, this finance that only works in finance, consider becoming an academic in finance, all that sort of stuff.
Rael Cline 32:39
And comes 2011 spent a year at Cambridge. And then I'm like, No, I'm. And so I ended up going back, to South Africa to Johannesburg, where a well-known entrepreneur had previously sold his telecoms business, a fixed-line telecom business, and was looking to start, start a new business in mobile. And he allowed me to just get in the ground zero-like you want to just come to join me like, I haven't even started the company yet. But let's, let's go for it. And it was it kind of the risk-reward calculation in my life was pretty straightforward, which is, you know, I'm not I don't have any dependents is a really good time to take the risk, right. I'm also just kind of going for it. And so So yeah, sure. Let's, let's, let's do that. And this. So this is for about, what is it about two years, two and a half years, where Long story short, and we can go into a bit more detail if you like, but, but long story short, this company didn't work out. And kind of the main reasons for this was the old company that he had worked for, came up, there's a lawsuit against him for a restraint of trade, right? So he was saying, you sold your fixed line, now you want to do mobile economy, and you do that. We just paid a lot of money for it anyway, the whole thing has
Yoni Mazor 33:58
Been closed after he sold his company, pretty much.
Rael Cline 34:02
And so if you've got a public company, that's like during a very early stage start-up is like legal, legal stuff, and court cases, like you're not going to stand a chance, right, so yeah, I mean, that just didn't work out in 2013. I think it was
Yoni Mazor 34:18
Limited though. 10. That was an experiment. And you move on to the next station. What was the next session? Yeah,
Rael Cline 34:23
Yeah. Then I came back to the UK. So this is when I came back to the UK and landed up CO founding a company in the UK called Media Ghana. So this is my big, I guess, shift to like, online advertising, and E-commerce in a way. So how do you connect these two things from the finance world? So I had been looking well, it was my girlfriend, now wife at the time had a website looking to monetize it by advertising. And so I'm looking into how do you do that? And I discovered this weird, wacky world of what's called programmatic advertising. And so this is a world where somebody arrives at websites.
Rael Cline 35:01
And whilst the page is loading in about 100 milliseconds, there's a real-time auction to show somebody an ad, and so by so that the bird when it's chosen when his ad gets shown to you. And so basically, you've got these algorithms in real-time that are doing all this buying and selling. And it was super interesting to me that, well, finance has been doing this for like 30 years.
Rael Cline 35:21
And so these are two industries that are never historically over that, right. And if the finance world knew what was going on in the online advertising world, a lot of people would have been involved in that. I mean, you can argue for good or for worse, I don't know. But so what I was looking to do is to apply some of the financial principles or techniques to this online advertising world. And again, we can get into the weeds here, but I was looking to do things like offer what are called derivatives, right. And so these are put and call options and futures contracts. But giving people the rights but not the obligation to place an ad at some point in the future, if you're doing a product launch. And I want the top spot on the particular page, I can pay a little bit now but have that option to show that at some point in the future.
Rael Cline 36:11
And so there are a lot of like nice ways in which this sort of finance thinking can translate into an advertising use case or a publisher use case if you're on the other side of the transaction. So I was Googling as anybody else looking into doing online advertising derivatives. And I came across a computer science professor at UCL University College London and Rd. Jude one had had a whole research focus for years on applied financial techniques on advertising, and of all the places in the world, I find somebody else looking at the same sort of intersection of two industries and happens to be in the same city, right? So I just emailed him out of the blue saying, hey, this is awesome. Like I'm looking into the same thing. Yeah, you've got a whole body of work on like, clearly on the computer science side. Let's see if we can commercialize it ultimately, right? And so we met up a few times and decided to co-found a company called Media gamma, which is a spin-out of their computer science department, beta,
Unknown Speaker 37:12
Beta, gamma, or better media NVDI media gamma. Got it? Yeah, yeah. So this was interesting, because
Rael Cline 37:23
Putting out of the university, I think has changed quite a lot. Universities, first and foremost, are used to licensing their IP not creating companies, although UCL I should say, we're good in that, that, you know, they were transitioning, and they're really good in that process. But yeah, we the idea, being to commercialize a lot of his research, but it was really funny because if I look at if I look back at like the very early slide decks, the pitches that we were making to people in like the media industry, or whatever it is, it's just completely the wrong language, the wrong slides, the wrong reading, everything about you couldn't, you couldn't get more things wrong. It's like
Yoni Mazor 38:00
A foreign object in a body and the body. Makes sense, doesn't talk to language.
Rael Cline 38:05
And so like in these pitch slides, I've got like calculations going I've got graphs that are intersecting, and I'm saying, Well, you know, if you just do that this could happen. And it's just wow, I mean, an exercise of how not to do things, right. So we cut we realized early on, so we got some angel funding to do that. And we realized early on like, Okay, this is, in theory, it makes good stance, you're going to have to do something else. Yeah. But to cut a long story short, we ended up doing custom algorithms for this programmatic advertising. So when you're, when you're in advertising, and you want to submit a bid in this auction, how much should I bid? And what do I know about this person? And therefore, how much should I bid? Or if you're an exchange, or you're a publisher on the other side of the transaction? How do I maximize my revenue? Right? How do I get the best price for this auction?
Yoni Mazor 38:53
So the derivatives, you know, my Morrow, then we'll kind of play itself out. But you're able to dive into the weeds and optimize spending and everything like that.
Rael Cline 39:04
Yeah, absolutely. So we would work with Yeah, a lot of
Yoni Mazor 39:09
Media gamma was owned by yourself and the university, the professor, what was equity allocation?
Rael Cline 39:15
Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to go to I guess, specifics on
Yoni Mazor 39:18
That numbers. But like, who were the partners in the equity? I mean, what would
Rael Cline 39:22
Be the stakeholders, the two founders, there's the university that had double digits. And then there were the investors. Right, so you, we had angel investors. And
Yoni Mazor 39:35
The question was, it's really interesting that you were able to get a university as your partner.
Rael Cline 39:39
Yeah. But I kind of alluded to that a little bit earlier, which is, traditionally at least in the UK, universities are much more about licensing IP, right. And so you pay them a royalty you're
Yoni Mazor 39:51
Touching. They're an owner of a stake, they have to probably put somebody on the board and represent themselves and their decisions. So that's an interesting dynamic. I don't want to go way too much into that. But I just find that interesting.
Rael Cline 40:02
I mean, that stuff is, yeah, I mean, I can talk as much as you like about that sort of stuff. So So yes, there was somebody on the board, which was quite helpful. And so the IP from the university was obviously in the company now. They're a shareholder now that 40 But also, for us, what was quite crucial is like, this is quite a specialized area, right. And so what was helpful for us is helping to recruit data scientists and machine learning specialists, right. And so John, who co-founded the company is supervising Ph.D. students, or postdocs, students, and all that sort of stuff that would come and work, you know, given the datasets, here's the task, and then let's go manage that. So yeah, we had access good access to a very scarce resource, right? It
Yoni Mazor 40:49
Was phenomenal. Yeah,
Rael Cline 40:50
Yeah. So like the real top, top quality data science and also like UCL as a university. The spinouts historically have been, you know, Google does remember Deep Mind generative minders. So Google Deep Mind. Cost quite a while ago now. But that's sorted out as UCL so Deep Mind was doing remember, those articles where the AI would like play games against humans, and when and all that sort of, that came from Deep Mind or play, play chess or play? Go Alpha Go?
Unknown Speaker 41:23
All of these sorts of games are watching computer with IBM also, or no, that's yeah, that
Rael Cline 41:27
Was kind of the 90s, I think? But yes, there's a one-day day version of that sort of stuff that is really at the cutting edge of like machine learning and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, UCL has got a good history of all that. Yeah. So we built a business, media gamma. Just focus on sort of that algorithmic optimization, ultimately is a brand I want to get. That's what's called performance advertising, you're not looking at getting as many eyeballs on the ad as possible.
Rael Cline 41:54
You're looking for conversions, right, like similar to the mentality, I guess, of Amazon's PPC, right, I'm looking for someone to install my app, I'm looking for someone to take some sort of action off the back of that. And really what works well, were the gaming companies, the mobile gaming companies, because and there's a reason why I'm bringing this up. Now, what they were interested in is okay. It's not good enough just to kind of measure, I don't know, my ad spend and how many downloads, what I'm interested in is what happens after they've installed the app, right?
Rael Cline 42:28
Like, what happens on day one, what happens on day three day 180, whatever it may be. And so they were very focused on a particular metric of customer lifetime value, or profit per customer. And very interested in connecting the dots from the advertising before they're even a customer to the download to six months later, and how much money they've spent or what profit they're making from that customer. So that whole journey is what made them very, very successful and very sophisticated. And so we did that, for gosh, what was that about 445 years up to about 2019 2020. And we ultimately ended up selling the business to a long-time customer of ours, a company in New York called beeswax. Who themselves ended up selling to Comcast, I want to say, I want to say anyway, whatever it is. So
Yoni Mazor 43:18
Ours, Universal Studios is a big giant,
Rael Cline 43:21
Huge advertiser, right? Like an enormous Yeah, all of that sort of stuff. So yeah, for us, I think for us, we reached a point in the business where it was difficult to scale beyond the point at which we were and the reasons for that. Primarily, because generally speaking on advertising security, right, Google Facebook, I mean, Amazon is now you know, doing a good job.
Yoni Mazor 43:44
It's becoming Amazon Neo coming in? Yeah.
Rael Cline 43:47
But yeah, still quite a long way off. Number one, number one, and two. And also what was happening on the two sides. Number one, Google and Facebook are becoming a lot more closed. So it was much harder to get access to data from Google and Facebook, and also on the regulatory side, right around privacy staff and all of that. So, you know, we just felt that there's going to be the headwinds in the business. And it's going to be difficult to scale up beyond a particular point. And so we sold to a long-time customer of ours, beeswax in 2020. And yeah, that's kind of the, I guess, the end of media gamma. And, again, if I win,
Yoni Mazor 44:31
Run with this pretty, pretty impressive. Well,
Rael Cline 44:35
There was Yeah, I mean, it was kind of 2015 to 2019. Somewhere on there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And interesting, like, you know, we can talk about this if you want but like how to build a super technical business. I'm, I'm technical but not in like software development or machine learning sense, right. And so how do you build machine learning cycles? Listen, you know, from like a software point of view of an engineering point of view versus a data science point of view, also, our DNA is very much research-driven, and we are spun out of the university.
Rael Cline 45:10
And in some ways, that's a very good thing and incredible help. But also you to be able to draw a line and say, ultimately, we're a commercial entity. Yeah. And, you know, we need to build a product that scales that people love and makes money ultimately, right? Because that's, that's what, that's what a company does, at least a for-profit company. So what are we sold the business kind of going back to basics for me thinking about what works well in that business?
Rael Cline 45:37
And it was this idea of these gaming companies that ultimately were measuring end to end, what would happen, right, advertising through to downloading making the first purchase and making the 20th purchase, you know, in-app and all that. And so thinking about where else is no coop could be applied this sort of, we could apply this mentality and technically get it done. And you'd land on Amazon, ultimately, right? Amazon is a closed ecosystem. But they do make the data available. Now we can, I can spend ages talking about how difficult it is to put all these things together. But if you, you know, try hard enough and try it, you know, build a relationship with that person, understand what sort of datasets,
Yoni Mazor 46:21
You have to cast out beeswax. Yeah, and then recalculate your route set. Where can I apply similar strengths that I have in an experience that I have to place or marketplace or industry that is underdeveloped that can utilize this kind of? So the immediate suspect was the Amazon Marketplace and
Rael Cline 46:40
Exactly experienced. Amazon is just going growing and growing. It's fantastic. And I remember the moment when it was a Sunday morning, and I'm at one of the local coffee places. And I'm reading through the API documentation on Amazon, right. And this is just if you want to build software using Amazon data, this is the document that tells you to know, what data you can get, and how do you get it? What are the lessons, all that sort of stuff, API documentation? And so for me, trying to understand what data we can get from these APIs, and whether that data was enough to do what you wanted to do, which is, here's the advertising side, here's all the sort of audit data. And here's how we can string all
Yoni Mazor 47:30
The things you like what you see or read or know. Yeah,
Rael Cline 47:33
This, this is like a river. This is like a eureka moment. For me. I'm like, Oh, my goodness, we can do this customer lifetime value, profit, customer type thing amongst a whole bunch of other things. And I'm like, nice. Wow, this is amazing. Nobody else is, is doing it right now, at least in the Amazon universe. These are quite well-understood concepts. If you're, you know, on Shopify, or whatever it is, it just has to be done in the Amazon. And yeah,
Yoni Mazor 47:57
It was a question mark, you dive into what's going on? And they realize, boom, I can do this. So yeah, I gave her two nozzle tickets there.
Rael Cline 48:03
Yeah, exactly. It gets a better nozzle. And nozzle is, as we said, at the top of this program, it's really about understanding your customers' wants, and what are they doing? What are their purchasing habits? How often are they buying from you, or they're buying the same things over and over, and understanding how to use that data to grow your business. And so the fundamental, I mean, taking a step back, we looked at what's happening in the Amazon, in the Amazon world, and it's getting harder and harder to compete on Amazon, right, you've got a bunch of things that are happening from Amazon itself.
Rael Cline 48:34
And you got a bunch of things that are just external, macro-type conditions. And so on the macro side, it's what the supply chain stuff, for instance, right, and you've got inflation and all these sorts of economic things going on. And number two from Amazon is becoming tougher, because you've got the aggregators coming in, pumping a lot of money pushing up costs, we all know that they're going up. And so really, the approach we're taking is that it's not enough to sell products, you've got to be able to build a brand and Madison. And actually, Amazon itself is kind of leaning towards this because if you look at what they've released in the last sort of 12 to 18 months, the data sets are something around brand building, you can argue us might not be that useful, or it's half baked, probably. But that's at least there
Yoni Mazor 49:18
As a signal. The signal is clear.
Rael Cline 49:19
Yeah, the signals kit is purely for us, we will say they're not going far enough. But that's our opportunity at the end of the day. And so to build a brand, how do you measure a brand? Like what is a brand, and you'll come up with 10 different definitions, but one of the most one of the ones we lean on really is about your customers like are they loyal, right? And it's not enough just to like, do you recognize this brand? Or do they put their money where their mouth is today and buy from you more than once? Right repeat orders.
Rael Cline 49:53
And so for us, we're about helping sellers build the brand, and leveraging their most powerful asset which is your most loyal customers, right? And so we would string together the journey of, of customers and say, Hey, did you know that you know, someone who first bought a 30-day supply of your supplements after the second purchase? Or then buying the 90-day version, right? This is an upsell-type use case. Or if you sell a trial version of your product, how many of them convert to buying the full version? What is your total profit per customer? How much can you spend to acquire a new customer? So these are very, strategic, fundamental questions in understanding your business, how much room it has to grow, and how to grow it ultimately. Right. And so those
Yoni Mazor 50:40
KPIs, key performance indicators, statistics points, and strategic decision-making capabilities are all within nozzle within the platform.
Rael Cline 50:47
Right? Yep. It's all within the nozzle dashboard. And yeah. And, you know, a lot of the key thing for us is like, obviously, so what's right, so what are, what I would do with that information that someone who first buys, you know, 30, the day goes to 90? Well, what is a lot of these have to do back on the advertising, right, if you want to remarket to people, you know, which products and you know, when they're buying, right, is that you know, after 30 days, or 60 days, in some cases, it's very obvious, if I'm selling a 30 day supply of something, they are pretty much buying after 30 days, again, if they're not subscribing safe, but for a lot of categories, you know, health and beauty and all that. It's not clear, if I'm selling face cream, you know, half, and someone's reordering. And so yeah, just really thinking about all about Wonderful.
Yoni Mazor 51:36
So and it's a mindset, I guess, is it trying to help any private label seller or more severe, like, you know, unique ones that are targeted, you know, consumer consumption and CPG. And, and,
Rael Cline 51:46
Right now, we're still quite an early-stage company. But right now, we're focused generally on categories that have, you would think, would have decent repeat orders, at the end of the guidance, right. And the key, the key way to compete with all of that is, you don't have to break even on the first purchase, right? So when you're thinking about how much can I spend on what is my breakeven a cost or so are any of those sorts of metrics, if you're just doing the calculation, assuming somebody just buys ones from you, you're just going to play the same game like everybody else.
Rael Cline 52:17
And it's becoming super, super expensive to do that. And we're giving you the information to say, hey, did you know that you can probably spend more you can spend double what you thought, if you prepare to wait three months to break even on that particular customer, because that's, you know, so many people go and buy again from you. And so you're just playing a very, very different game, around the brand building. And, you know, competing, ultimately.
Yoni Mazor 52:43
Got it. Very cool. Okay. So this is kind of the nozzles today and its mission is the purpose to help you know, our private label brands selling on Amazon, I think that's super innovative and trailblazing, I think that's cool, I think, sellers, who aim to have repeat business to look into that, I want to kind of capture the body of the story to see what we got so far. See if we got everything correctly. So born and raised in Johannesburg, 2008, you graduate, and then you start working for you know, the oil industry in South Africa, right? Modeling things for them. And 2010, you got a unique opportunity to go to Cambridge to study.
Yoni Mazor 53:15
And then you know, you finished around 2011 2011 to until 2013, you're back in South Africa working for you know, this mobile telephone industry and then didn't pan out. But in 2013 you go back to London, and you see this opportunity. And you create media gamma with, you know, advertising and traditional media, digital advertising, and then 2019 around that you sell to beeswax, and then you kind of reach out to a router, see Amazon, you know, the industry of Amazon, and the marketplace, you dive into the API, you know, texts and manuscripts, and then you see a boom, this whole opportunity to help there. So now they give birth to the nozzle. And as you mentioned, for the nozzle, the ambition is, you know, for repeat business, give everything all the KPIs are needed to make wise decisions, and how much more can you push and spend, and invest to get ROI and hopefully, over time, we'll make a good mark-up and take leadership maybe
Rael Cline 54:14
Build the brand of loyal customers, right, which is
Yoni Mazor 54:17
I think that that changes the game a lot for many sellers. And I think many sellers should aspire to that as much as possible. That is foundational. You know, it's very hard on Amazon to create conditions. That allows you to think that's unique. Do we get everything correctly so far? Yes, pretty good.
Rael Cline 54:34
I wish I could summarise myself like that as well. So nicely done.
Yoni Mazor 54:38
So no worries. Okay, so now I want to finish off the episode very quickly with two points. The first one is if somebody wants to reach out and connect, where can they find you? And the last thing will be is what is your message of hope and inspiration for entrepreneurs listening out there?
Rael Cline 54:50
Yeah, so I'm the first one to reach and connect on LinkedIn. And I'm not active on Twitter, so email and LinkedIn, I would say so LinkedIn rail client or a URL CLI N E. M, my email address is email@example.com. So, just for all these sorts of topics, I'm really happy to chat about all of them. So please reach out if there are any questions in the comments. And yeah, that sort of stuff. Yeah, in terms of like, I guess, advice for entrepreneurs, there's a lot of stuff, right. Like, for me?
Rael Cline 55:21
What's interesting about my journey, I guess, is I've built pretty technical companies without actually learning to code ultimately, and, or right, you know, sophisticated algorithms and that sort of stuff. And so for me, it's more of a case of like, how do I, how do I assemble a team A complement with complementary skill sets, that's what people want to invest in. That's how you be successful. So yes, I'm not the one doing that I'm looking after maybe the commercial aspects. But obviously, you need to have somebody that's complimentary that is going to do that sort of stuff. And so this idea of like, I can't build a tech company, because I don't know how to code.
Rael Cline 55:57
I think that's rubbish, right? Now, I need to understand how software is built, I need to understand the right questions to ask and all these sorts of things, where the bottlenecks, where the risks, whatever, all that sort of stuff. But I would say don't be put off around trading a tech company, because you can study the right things, when you don't know how to code, in fact, actually actively think. If you haven't studied those sorts of things, it's probably a very bad use of your time to go learn how to code because you're going to do not going to be able to do it as well as somebody else to go find someone else to partner with to do.
Rael Cline 56:29
So I think that's a good piece of advice. I also think, the value of the intellectual property, maybe that's overvalued. You know, like, at the end of the day, you can spend a lot of time and money filing patents and all this sort of stuff. But ultimately, would you rather have that or paying customers right? Like, this is from a software point of view, and it's certainly your sort of industries, medical industry, or you know, biotech and things like that. Parma. That is all about patents. So definitely recognize that, but I'm just saying like, sort of general status or tech, consumer Tech Company, that kind of thing. And probably maybe something else that I think is I'm also learning. In some cases, the hard way is listening to your customers, not the experts.
Yoni Mazor 57:16
I love that. I'll take that. So once again, you know, whatever inspiration for entrepreneurs, listening to your customers, when you recognize, when you listen to customers, you can see what their demand if you can meet that demand. You do well in the business. Tomorrow and also 30 years, 30 years from now. Beautiful style service. Thank you so much for joining us today. I learned a lot. I hope everybody else enjoyed it, stay safe and healthy. Brilliant. Thank you.