In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Devin Miller of Miller IP Law talks about The Benefits of Patents & Trademarks for Amazon Sellers, also more information about his life's journey. #DevinMiller #MillerIPLaw
About Devin Miller of Miller IP Law - Helping Startups Protect & Grow Inventions & Brands. If you are a startup, small business, or a solo inventor looking for a high-quality & affordable patent or trademark, you've found the right place. We offer transparent and affordable options specifically designed for your business goals. Grab a strategy meeting to kick things off!
Yoni Mazor 0:06
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode I talk about today I have a special guest today I'm having Devin Miller. Devin is the founder and CEO of Miller IP law, which is a law firm that focuses on helping eCommerce sellers with patents and trademarks. So, Devin, welcome to the show.
Devin Miller 0:22
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Yoni Mazor 0:25
Awesome. In our pleasure to have you on our show today. So today's episode is gonna be the story of you the story of Devin Miller, are you gonna share with us everything? Who are you? Where were you born? Where are you from? You know, how did you grow up? How'd you begin your professional career, station to station until we're going to hit where you are today, especially with the world of E-commerce. So without further ado, let's jump right into it.
Devin Miller 0:51
Awesome. Yeah, so that's probably a much longer story than anybody wants to hear. So I'll try and give a bit of a condensed version. So a bit about me. So I am a husband been married for 14 years father of four, so have an oldest as my son, that's 11. And then three daughters going down to five years old. So that in itself is that pride and joy in that the focus of my life and what I cherish the most. And then on the bit on the educational side. So I got four degrees with my wife always jokes is three degrees too many. So I've got an electrical engineering degree, a degree in Mandarin Chinese, an MBA or Masters of Business Administration, and then a lot of green. So really, that's kind of been my path as far as education now that transitions into my career, I've always kind of had two passions. One is I love startups and small businesses, I've done you know, everything from small family businesses and make a few $1,000 A year up to seven and eight-figure businesses that are still going today and thriving and doing well. And then in addition to that, you know, those that's always been one of my two passions, and the other side is the legal side, which is I love doing the or intellectual property work with patents and trademarks and copyrights and helping startups and small businesses to protect and grow their business. So I've been doing the legal or both of those, both the entrepreneur side since while I was still in college and then on the legal side been doing it since there now for about 10 years.
Yoni Mazor 2:16
Yeah, so yeah, that's the thing for the recap is it's pretty great. Now I just want to put all that you know, you know, aside for a second I want to dive into your journey. Right. So let's start from the beginning. Where were you born?
Devin Miller 2:31
Yeah, so I was I was born in Mesa, Arizona, which is just it's just right outside Phoenix, Arizona here in the US. You know where I was born versus where I grew up. So after so my family has been in a place called Morgan Utah to small just kind of farm town throwing a lot basket I want but for a long time was a small farm town and my family's been here for all generations back to the founders in 1800. So
Yoni Mazor 2:58
Got it so but your formative years and when he grew up was where and it was in Oregon, Utah that small farm town got in which age were you when you guys relocated to Arizona?
Devin Miller 3:08
So I am just the opposite. I was born in Arizona I grew up there till I was two my family was from Morgan moved there for a couple of years for a job moved back and I grew up in Morgan
Yoni Mazor 3:17
Guy so your formative years I was back in Utah Morgan Utah again you in what kind of industries you're your prints were involved with when you were growing up charging remember
Devin Miller 3:25
yeah so my mother was a stay at home mom who raised us was always there to help the kids and my dad was he was a background in electrical engineering he did a lot of work on various electronics primarily with medical devices so he did a lot of engineering work with medical devices everything he earlier on did Motorola later on work with LG Electronics in Seoul Korea.
Yoni Mazor 3:47
Got it and okay so when you grow up at what you're involved with anything that was entrepreneurial and its core, like you know, on paper out some bubble gum, any things you tried to do to make money on the sidewalk going up?
Devin Miller 3:59
You know, I wish I wish I could say I was more so I and I encourage my kids all to do it and they much more entrepreneur and I was I always had a few fear schemes and that but most of the time I had a this a job that I'd had throughout high school learn the value of money. My biggest passion was as I restored a muscle car when I was a kid and so usually my one which one a 67 Camaro, so Chevy Camaro so it tells
Yoni Mazor 4:24
a very interesting story. How old were you when he did that?
Devin Miller 4:28
So it's longer it's a slightly longer story. So, my dad, had one when he was growing up, but that was the day when they did not butter, a classic car. And so he'd got one when I was 13 or 14. Today this will be a fun project car that I can work on with my son and me I showed zero interest in it and I said that there's an old rust bucket that doesn't look cool at
Yoni Mazor 4:51
All. That's his car that he had back from 67 No, it was one
Devin Miller 4:54
That he got from a friend. So same guy, the same type of car. He did but it wasn't the same Carwin hid from when he was a kid. But he bought picked it up from someone else. And you know, it was one where he was getting about ready to sell it and then somebody else can. That's an awesome car, I'd love to buy it. And that was me as like a 15-year-old saying, well, somebody else's, it's cool that it's got to be cool. Let's not sell it. So then I got excited. And from about 15 to about 16 and a half. So a year, year and a half my dad tore it down, tore down to the engine block, builds it back up, there was still a rust bucket. And then I saved up and did a paint job and did bodywork on it. And I still have it to this day, and it's in the garage, and I'll take it out on some fun drives every so often.
Yoni Mazor 5:37
Ah, that's pretty cool. So he did I guess all this work in your home you didn't put in the shop and tried to do there you kind of did it your house, right?
Devin Miller 5:43
A lot of it was some of the more complex work and we got into really nitty-gritty bodywork. We had some other people help out and took to a shop, but the engine work a lot of the restoration building in the interior. And that was all just done in our garage in our house. Right. So
Yoni Mazor 5:57
If your father was a bit natural, he's an engineer. But I guess you mentioned also that one of your degrees was in engineering. So I guess you had the knack for that also, was that helpful for that? Are you already discovering were you able to discover that you have a knack for engineering with this project or did you know beforehand or that develop later on?
Devin Miller 6:13
You know, I don't know. I don't know when to develop? It was the only thing I remember is when I was getting into getting ready to go to college. I said well what do I want to do? What do I want to study I said well, I think is interesting how electronics work and kind of are figuring it out. I never really necessarily put it to a toe together with a car that isn't well, my dad's an engineer he's getting what he does is kind of cool. I think it's kind of fun to figure out how things work I'll go into engineering and that was probably about the extent of thought that I gave to it when I got it. Got it got
Yoni Mazor 6:44
That's very cool. So today when the Camaro has a little bit of a bit of an issue what do you do you take it to a shop where yourself I let you know you know from the inside out right yeah, you know you're very intimate with you know every little corner
Devin Miller 6:55
most of it all I'm doing myself unless it's something that you need some tools or specialized equipment or something that I don't have in the garage but if it's a tune-up if it's swapping out parts or fixing something most of the time I'll just do it myself guide
Yoni Mazor 7:06
And where to go where to go. So you also mentioned in passing that your family was a few generations in Morgan Utah. Yeah, so what was that you guys are for Mormon the center are there yeah so
Devin Miller 7:19
Mormon the Center Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or LDS whichever nickname or, you know if they're going by, but yeah, so the family was LDS back in the late 1800s. They came or came into Utah. They went to figure out a place they wanted to live they started a sawmill family to build a sawmill to establish the county or you know the city around it. And then really the family's been here ever since and related to half the county probably and it's kind of just been a generational place and we all love and enjoy it
Yoni Mazor 7:53
Guy’s sounds very communal, but we also like attending church every Sunday as a family. What was that kind of routine?
Devin Miller 7:59
Yeah, so we're pretty devout so we attend church every Sunday we are I serve you know, part of the reason I have Mandarin Chinese is a certain religious mission for my church. That we're gonna get to that soon. Yeah, I Yeah. Are you active in the church and are and active in my beliefs?
Yoni Mazor 8:18
All right, very cool. Okay, so you get to graduate high school, also Morgan, Utah, and what was the next station after high school straight to college or did admission
Devin Miller 8:26
Went to college for about a year. So I did a year of undergraduate before I went on the mission. So I went to Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, did that for a year set it undergraduate, and then went on the mission from there.
Yoni Mazor 8:40
Okay, so what's your let's start slapping the IRS on it. So what you did you have on a mission and it was straight to China was around the world.
Devin Miller 8:46
Um, so it was to Taiwan. So I went to undergraduate from 2002 to 2003. Then 2003 when certain emissions I went to Taiwan, so depending on who you asked, I won't either his own country or part of China Taiwan.
Yoni Mazor 9:01
So what IP area or
Devin Miller 9:03
Yeah, in Thai Bay, so and Thai bay area so I was there for two years. We moved around here to several different locations with the air without my mission. So when served in different areas, it was always a
Yoni Mazor 9:14
Focus. They're helping you helped me the committee creating jobs. Are you doing there for two years and type?
Devin Miller 9:21
Sharon, I believe so. It was most of it. We did a lot of there are different services and helped out in the community in general. And a lot of it was knocking on doors. They're sharing what we believe seeing a
Yoni Mazor 9:31
Chinese Mandarin Chinese. Yep, exactly. I mean, I can do anyhow, the data. Yeah, what's going on, and wasn't already Christian there or the other faiths? What's the landscape?
Devin Miller 9:42
Primarily is going to be Buddhism and Hinduism. So or some form of that or Taoism, so it's generally going to be more of what would be known as typical Eastern or Asian religions. And so that would be predominantly it's mostly atheist. It's usually more family passed down that they practice they’re practicing in the sense that that's what they did when they're growing up. They don't they're not very active in reality, and most of them are atheists or just believe in a creator, but don't do anything more.
Yoni Mazor 10:09
Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you a marketing question. What was your conversion rate? Your conversion rate, right?
Devin Miller 10:16
Oh, it would have been from a marketing perspective. I'm sure it would have been horrible. I mean,
Yoni Mazor 10:22
Some KPIs need a very small percentage, but every percent would, that would, that's one big you know,
Devin Miller 10:26
So if I were to say the people that I helped bring into their bring into the church or to join our religion is probably 15 to 20. I'd have to think about it and give me an exact number. So over the space of two years, that's what maybe not quite one a month something like that.
Yoni Mazor 10:41
It's not so bad, but what so how many doors is your knock? That's the
Devin Miller 10:45
I'm sure it's in the 10s to hundreds of 1000s. So it's Hodge's
Yoni Mazor 10:49
1000 doors and you converted 10 to 15 was pretty strong. This is pretty Wow, this is you know, you got some grunt on you. It's pretty impressive. All right. I guess that's very formative. No, it's a real thing about you gotta outer space basically because it's a different culture, different language you knock on the door you got to you know, learn the language learn their culture to be able to say hey, I have an opportunity for you know what you perceive to be an opportunity right it's a religious kind of a mission but it's really like soldiers spiritual soldiers you go all the way over there and you get no you got so many knows but you kept knocking and the one that you know the few that you got Yes, I guess that probably inspired you a lot or changed your life changed their life I don't know if you're still in contact with them or what grew out of those relationships or anything significant.
Devin Miller 11:35
I'm not anymore I stayed in contact with him for a few years after my mission and then that's like it's busy schooling it's a career you tend to just kind of not intentionally but taper off so I haven't been in contact with them for a while but three years after I was
Yoni Mazor 11:48
Sure that you're not going to do it probably changes a few things for them and of course their life. So after two years, we were kind of drained exhausted, or like fired off with the next thing what was your mindset? Yeah, so
Devin Miller 11:58
the way that it works with the Mormon church is you sign up and go for two years so two years is the full extent of your mission if you're a woman they're you know, a female is a year and a half for males is two years and once you get done you've certainly you've served your mission and then you go home back to I apologize
Yoni Mazor 12:15
For my ignorance, this is something you get paid for no like what's a no
Devin Miller 12:19
No, I paid for my mission so no. One where you pay that you cover your expenses and so you pay him a monthly amount to cover you know, rent and food and board
Yoni Mazor 12:30
Why did Joe view what drove you to do this? I mean, take your time, take your money, and take two years to do this. What was your driver? Was it spiritual or more like you wanted to prove it to yourself? You can do it was, you know, tasting the world in a bit? What were the main ingredients internally that we're going back in time?
Devin Miller 12:46
Yeah, it was purely spiritual. So I felt blessed I firm believer in my religion, that's true. I'm sure everybody says their religion is true, but I'm certainly not any exception. But true and firm believer, I had a desire that I wanted to go out and share it. And so you know, came to the point where you can reach the age where they'll accept mission papers, I didn't even the way that it works, you know, is for the LDS church or the Church of Jesus Christ is you put it in you don't tell them where you're going. You don't even know when you're submitting, where you're going to go. So I didn't even know where Taiwan was. When I sent her when I said I wanted to go on a mission. I simply said, Hey, I'd like to go serve like to share the share my beliefs. And then I get a letter there saying, hey, you've been called to Taiwan have or have been there for two years, and then go share the Gospel. And then that's when I went and did.
Yoni Mazor 13:34
Wow, it's pretty, pretty wild. Pretty remarkable. Okay, now let's, you know, thank you for sharing that. Now. I want to touch if I may, a little bit of the guests, the Taiwanese culture, you know, two years, well, and what do you make of it? What was your impression, or take I?
Devin Miller 13:47
Love it. So it's one where it's significantly different than the US culture, from food to language to culture to families dynamics, you know, just it's about as opposite or I don't know, as opposite but it's certainly one that's there fairly often I
Yoni Mazor 14:02
Call out of space, because it's just so different. It's like nothing ever since I like going to Europe, which is a few similarities are different.
Devin Miller 14:09
But I grew to love it. I enjoyed what I said, I grew to love the food, love the people love the language, you know, just a great experience. And so is one where, you know, it's certainly culture shock when you get there and you get, you know, get your get on the island and have very little idea of what they're saying and what's going on and what you're eating. And then you just grow to love it is your behavior to spend time there and they're serving the people
Yoni Mazor 14:30
And economically or in terms of work ethics or stuff like that. And what's the situation there in those years. This is what 2003 To 2005 Yep, they're growing. They're booming. They're in a recession. What was the dynamic they're
Devin Miller 14:44
Pretty good, they're steady or steady economy. So I don't know that it was booming or taking off in the exploding it wasn't going down but it was just a steady growth economy that was pretty even keel
Yoni Mazor 14:53
Where people will love the doors you're knocking people are well off financially or they're kind of maybe, you know, social service. Socioeconomically they're kind of struggling as well, you're probably fairly
Devin Miller 15:03
Similar to like the US as far as you'll have, you know, different parts of the country, you'll have some like Taiwan or Taipei, it's going to be pretty well off. And people have a good amount of income. Other places within the country are but I'd say, you know if you're too kind of condensed where the US is, and to an island type of thing, it's probably a similar feel.
Yoni Mazor 15:22
God, okay, so 2003 2005, you finish a mission. Once again, you had a year of college, two years of mission, what was your next step for you or the next day,
Devin Miller 15:30
So I came back picked up college where I left off so BYU is, is also it's a, an LDS or it's a religion. It was founded by my church. So I came back and started are picked up where I last left off, they make it pretty easy to a seamless transition. So for the next additional four years, where I did the two degrees. So I started in electrical engineering for the first year after I served in Taiwan and said, Hey, why don't I pick up a second degree in Chinese where I've already spent two years learning the language. So I came back to focus primarily on as far as career-wise doing electrical engineering but then took the next four years to finish up both of those degrees.
Yoni Mazor 16:10
Got it and you picked up your fundamentals of Chinese Mandarin Chinese and the mission. We'll do those two years.
Devin Miller 16:15
Yeah. So most of what I learned was on the mission as far as speaking language abilities, and then it was coming back and just kind of refining that and further expanding it a bit in college.
Yoni Mazor 16:25
Can you say it in Mandarin? Hello, I'm an American.
Devin Miller 16:30
How your ego was may go make more
Yoni Mazor 16:33
May go remember we may go that’s America, right? Like America. We said this
Devin Miller 16:38
Is American and may or may boy would be America. Yeah.
Yoni Mazor 16:41
My ways to go may go tell American may go. Yeah, you may go. I'm American. Omega Red. As you said, you gotta say like that. Right. Okay, very, very cool. All right. So 2009, you finish your you know, your degree and what was and sh station for them?
Devin Miller 16:57
Yeah, 2009. So finished a degree and I'm kind of coming out of college, I'm saying what do I want to be when I grow up? And it was kind of I had, I, as I was wrapping up the undergraduate, I said, You know what, I like electrical engineering, I think it's interesting. I don't want to be an engineer, in the sense that the typical prospect for an engineer is you work for a company for a long time, you start as a very small cog in a big wheel. If you're lucky, you'll move up. And eventually, when you're working for 1520 years, you'll have some impact on the business. I'm saying that this doesn't excite me. And I'd rather have a bigger impact on the business and be more involved earlier on. And so I'm coming out of undergraduate saying what do I want to do and I grew up I don't want to be an engineer, but I like engineering. And so it was kind of I was looking saying, Well, I got kind of two passions, and love startups live small businesses love kind of entrepreneurial aspect. And I also find them, you know, the legal side fairly interesting passion, especially with patents and trademarks as it relates to business. And so I've kind of come out saying, which do I do, which do I choose? And I said, well, rather than choose one or the other, I'm just going to do both. So kind of rather than choose one path, I just decided I'm going to split it right down the middle, go get degrees in both, and see which one I love and enjoy. And so I went off to I went to apply to various schools that offered both programs and had built an MBA a good MBA program and they had a good legal program and got
Yoni Mazor 18:18
These awesome minutes since school at BYU are already spread out.
Devin Miller 18:22
So these are spread out so I applied to BYU they're incredibly competitive in both programs I didn't make it into one of the programs and so I went off to Cleveland Ohio to Case Western Reserve which had good programs I was accepted into a bowl and allowed me to pursue bolted on so graduated left Provo Utah went out to Cleveland Ohio.
Yoni Mazor 18:42
Got it so 2009 until one
Devin Miller 18:44
2013 So dual degree program for the NBA and illegal degrees for years.
Yoni Mazor 18:49
So all I saw all and he did like eight years Right? Are you 2015 to 2013 four years in Utah and another four years in Ohio nine and a half years not happy because we had you before had you gone to the mission
Devin Miller 19:00
here before four years once I got back and there's about a half because I did some things over the summer before I went off to graduate school and then four additional years so five and a half years for undergraduate four years for graduate.
Yoni Mazor 19:12
Got it. So I guess it begs the question, how are you supporting so financially? Oh,
Devin Miller 19:18
I worked during our both myself and my wife worked during that also have student loans combination of working as much as I can to keep our debt down. And then what kind
Yoni Mazor 19:26
Of jobs were we doing with all these years for non-half years?
Devin Miller 19:30
Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I did everything as an undergraduate I did janitorial work. I did customer service where my wife worked as a nurse. So she has a nursing degree. So she worked as a janitor before she graduated, she graduated before I did then she went into nursing, and then when we went off to graduate school I started working for a law firm as a law clerk as I was going through school.
Yoni Mazor 19:52
So what's interesting to me is that you know, it seems like these are you know, like, odd gigs, and right? Like, whatever you can get your hands on. Right you know, just to get your education done for all this extended time and you already married it guys, I guess you gotta you know, get married along with the ways. But what strikes me as interesting is the fact that you took two years off and paid for it from your pocket, it wasn't like you can't for money. It's not like you're sending, you know, this roiled church and, and the quarter Kingscourt. And this says, you know, if you go into it, everything will be provided. So it kind of expresses the dedication you had to the mission because you're not wealthy. You know, once you got back from a mission, you're doing janitorial work or this, you know, anything to get your hands on just to get by to survive. Nevertheless, you pay to get out and, and improve. That's, that's pretty, pretty serious stuff. So I find that to be very interesting. Okay. 2013. That's when you kind of start, you know, heading out to the professional world where you get already an internship with a law firm.
Devin Miller 20:46
Yeah, so I was in Cleveland, Ohio, I had been working with a law firm, I worked for a couple of different firms out to undergrad or graduate school dealt with earning the degrees. And I was coming out and saying, Hey, I want to move back to Utah. That's where my family is. That's the kind of atmosphere I want to raise kids in. And so I was already planning on leaving. That's so I was one point, I'd had a startup that was going and so that was one side of it. I was getting that startup up, we were bringing on people, and we were getting investor dollars. And then on the legal side, I was also applying for different law firms in Utah. I applied all across the country because I didn't find one in Utah I needed a job when I graduated, why
Yoni Mazor 21:26
Are you knocking on doors, no problem, you go knocking on doors, or, you know, administrivia leeway with universities.
Devin Miller 21:33
I probably applied for, I don't know, 1520 different law firms. And I was I'd accepted a job in Texas, and we're about ready to go to Texas because that was a law firm. That was a good one that I'd had experience in right about the time we were making that final decision, one of the law firms that I wanted to go to in Utah extended an offer. And so we changed our plans and came back to Utah,
Yoni Mazor 21:53
God to God, but you mentioned something interesting. So you 2013 You sent into a kind of, you know, making more simple two routes, you know, your, your, your legal work, your professional work as a lawyer, but also the startup. So let's talk to the startup for a second. What's that about?
Devin Miller 22:08
Yeah, so startup came about so that I have to rewind the story a couple of years. So the third year in the four-year program, I was I can't remember it was a flyer or if it was an email, but I there was an announcement saying, Hey, we're doing a business competition where you can come do a multidisciplinary, you meet people there, you know, form groups with people you don't know, and come up with a business idea and entered into the competition. So I went to the meeting, met some people from the group, first year we entered a product it was to make Gym Bags less smelly. It was kind of a fun idea but was never going to go anywhere. So we wrapped up that third year, the fourth year comes along, we get back together say hey, we'd like to do the competition.
Devin Miller 22:47
Again. We don't want to go after the last year's idea what other ideas do we have? And, you know, we came up with some really stupid ideas, and then never worked clouding self-packing boxes and other things. But where we landed was I remember as I was walking back, I started I enjoyed running. So I do a lot of I've done marathons and I usually run about nine, nine, and a half miles each morning. And so I got into doing marathons and I thought, hey, wouldn't it be cool? If you had a wearable, you had a watch, they could tell you what your hydration level ones. So that was kind of the idea. Pitch it to the group. They thought it was a good idea. I built a prototype with my dad over Christmas break when I came back to Utah because he had a lot of medical device experience. And we started to build that entered in the competition to second place, which I'm still bitter about because we should have taken first. And at the end of that, we were kind of saying, Well, this is a good I thought it was a good idea. I thought it had some real merit and was worthwhile pursuing. We were all graduating everybody is going to different locations. And I said hey, I don't think it's going to work for us to try and do a startup when everybody's going to be in different locations. How about I buy out all of you guys’ positions so I bought out all their positions with how many partners were there? There are three others so there are three others I take what I want from the competition we take second place I said rather than me taking the money How about you guys split it up into three ways. We'll come to count that as my buyout
Yoni Mazor 24:04
And 20 was how much money was it if you don't mind sharing
Devin Miller 24:08
$5,000 something like that. Okay, symbolic. Yeah. So it was there's one where they're gonna say well, you won't know all the technology you're the one that built it, we probably couldn't do anything with it anyway. So if you're not going to hear we you're going to be the one that's running it and so we might still take the money because we're not going to be able to have any better opportunity so bought them out and I said hey, I think that's a good competition. So are a good idea. So that's where we started I brought a couple of people on my dad got involved a couple of other people I knew it was a lot of sweat equity, but you know, had a 20-year software programmer had my dad his alleged engineer had myself and a couple of other people that we're joining the business and starting to grow it into the more legitimate way. Got a couple of years into it. We got to a point we started taking on investor dollars took on some of our larger investors building it out and
Yoni Mazor 24:57
If you don't mind sharing
Devin Miller 24:59
Seven figures probably won't get into the exact number, but it was over a million under 10 million. Yeah, somewhere in there. Yeah, it'd be
Yoni Mazor 25:06
Goodman. But at that stage, you already had a product in the market, it was still a prototype, what was the actual value? It was
Devin Miller 25:11
A fairly well-developed prototype, but it was one that still needed some testing and further development. So it was pre-launch or was it in the marketplace. Yep.
Yoni Mazor 25:21
Okay, when you raise pre-launch, not in the marketplace, but it's still ongoing today. It's still in the works or
Devin Miller 25:27
no, so yeah, that's it's a long story, but happy to share. So we took on the investor dollars, got into a stage where we had a fully functional prototype, we started testing it with college teams, collegiate, and NFL teams, and other ones. And we're getting to the point where to then take what we have done as a very good working functioning prototype, and do it as a full consumer product, your product on the marketplace would kind of take the next tranche of investor dollars is going to be a fairly expensive endeavor to kind of get that all up and doing and making a polished product, and doing all that. So we were in the mode of doing that as fundraising and going out and doing the next round, we got connected up with through a little bit of a sort of tail to a somebody who was doing what diabetes, diabetes monitoring, and doing that as a software more as a service. So we connected up with them, they were we ended up combining companies or merging companies to take a lot of the technology we've developed for my monitoring hydration, adjusted to monitoring diabetes and glucose levels, they were taking a lot of their service-based industry and that they're informed that is a new business. And that was still up and going. We've now done a lot of work on that they're they've soft lines, they have some clients on board, and it'll be over this next year that they'll
Yoni Mazor 26:44
Try this evolution, it kind of redefines its purpose and its mission and tag along with another entity. And that's where it stands today. So you're still involved already cashed out in that merger.
Devin Miller 26:55
I'm still involved you know, not as actively involved as when it was a startup mode. And now that there's a lot more management plays and people so I've, I'm been more passive still involved, they don't know what's going on. To participate, but at a much more reduced level.
Yoni Mazor 27:09
Got it? Okay. Make sense? So alright, so back to 2013. We cover that startup. Now let's go into I guess, you know, your, your, your legal career. So let's go there. So take us through those stations.
Devin Miller 27:22
Yeah, so legal career. So doing the startup on the side, or always figures side by side. Hustles a second full-time job. But I was always saying, hey, this business isn't such that it's making money, I still need to pay student loans need to support my wife and my kids and my family. So I'm also focusing on the legal career of providing that service. And so I came back to Utah to work for the firm that I hired on to for a couple of years, got a lot of good experience was looking for something a bit different as far as the firm to kind of take my career to the next level. So I left them and joined a bigger firm. So it was a Silicon Valley, top 100 law firm in the US. It was a great, great experience. But
Yoni Mazor 28:00
It was that when he made the shift.
Devin Miller 28:02
I see I graduated in 2013. Two years later about 2015.
Yoni Mazor 28:07
Did you make the move to Silicon Valley startup technologies?
Devin Miller 28:12
So I worked remotely. So they had it was a huge firm. They have big offices in New Jersey, New York, and Silicon Valley, but they had a new Utah brand. So just starting to grow. So I kind of
Yoni Mazor 28:23
gave it the name of the law firm is a big he said top 100 this time around.
Devin Miller 28:26
Yeah, it's named Lowenstein Sandler. So if you were to go and google it online, they have hundreds of attorneys, and they do all sorts of work.
Yoni Mazor 28:33
Got it? Okay, so 2015, you started? How long did you stay there? And what do you do for your focus during those years?
Devin Miller 28:38
Yeah, so for about two and a half years, a lot of the same work that I was doing, they had a lot more clientele. I mean, I was doing work for Amazon, I didn't work for intelligent work for Red Hat, and I'm
Yoni Mazor 28:51
Filing for patents and trademarks, for the most part, are
Devin Miller 28:53
Mostly. Yeah, so really focus on patents and doing the word patent work for those different businesses.
Yoni Mazor 28:59
And again, the patents or defending them are both
Devin Miller 29:03
Mostly secure again. So typically, when you do at least one some of this intellectual property, it's either you go down the enforcement route of doing more litigation and lawsuits, or again, go down the route of what's called prosecution where he secured a pan. So I went down the route of securing the patents,
Yoni Mazor 29:17
They secure their patents and take us through some of that experience. Well, how does that you know, typically work out, let's say, you know, we can take a case study with Amazon, if you want it to be too specific. But give us a rundown on what you know what it's all about. Yeah. So how does all work out? Yeah.
Devin Miller 29:34
So it's a different bill between what I do now as far as our law firm and how we'll get businesses, but when you're working with a big firm they have in house counsel, they have legal counsel that manages all their technology and what they want to get that so well before I ever touched it. They'd already decided what the technology was, what they wanted to pat, and what the path was, and then they will write it up. They'll give you a write-up and say, here's all the information you'll talk to the inventors get any Additional details and questions you'll take about you know a couple of months you're ready about, you know, a couple of months you're writing, you know, along with everything else, you have multiple things running in parallel, but you'll draft an application, you'll send it back to them, they review it, they either give you the thumbs up, or they tell you is crappy and to go fix things. And then once you get it in a place where they feel good about it, you go ahead and file it.
Yoni Mazor 30:16
Now, did you feel like your background in engineering and in the setting that helped you a lot with, you know, all the back and forth of this these elements? Or was mostly really more on the legal side of awarding things and stuff like that?
Devin Miller 30:27
Yeah, so no, engineering? Absolutely. And to even be a patent attorney, you have to have you have to pass what's called a Patent Bar. To even be eligible for the Patent Bar, you have to have a technical undergraduate. So you have to
Yoni Mazor 30:40
Make sense, because there are two types of patents. I'm not a professor, but as far as the standard one is, you know, the utility that kind of more than the engineering side of things, what is new here? What is, you know, to the particular defendant's intellectual property, the second one is more than design. So that's less technical would say it's more like, is this really kind of under design? The appearance that looks and feels? Yeah,
Devin Miller 31:00
Yeah. So you have to have a pretty good technical under I mean, I'm working with technologies are everything from the micro process level, to data security, to antennas for some of the Amazon products, all of which are fairly sophisticated. And to even be able to begin to understand what the technology is, you have to have a pretty good background in engineering. So definitely, that was helpful, and wouldn't be able to do without the engineering degree
Yoni Mazor 31:21
Guy. Yeah, it makes total sense. And I appreciate you sharing that. So. So let's get into what 2017 or 18 already, what was your next step after you know, working with a law firm?
Devin Miller 31:29
Yeah, so at the end of 2017, I had worked a ton of hours and was getting burned out saying, Hey, I got some great experience. But I want to find a better work-life balance than what I'm getting. I want to spend more time with my kids and my wife, and not be working all the time. So I started looking around and found a firm that stayed sure was headquartered in Portland, Oregon, but was looking for some or had the availability to work remote, so wanted to stay in Utah didn't want to move, or all the family ties where me my wife wanted to be. So I joined a firm that was important in Oregon and work remotely out of an office in my house for about a year and a half or so.
Yoni Mazor 32:07
I guess so 217 until what 18 to 19. Yeah, end of 2018. And doing the same thing as the other firms for the most part,
Devin Miller 32:15
Different client’s a different technology, a lot of the same or patent work, and then doing that just for different clientele.
Yoni Mazor 32:21
Okay, so next station, what happened next, what transpired then?
Devin Miller 32:24
So that's kind of where my journey comes in. of, hey, I wanted to so I in the background, we already talked about I've done I did, I did the startup, which is now in the going here continuing to go. I've also done a couple of additional startups which they're continuing to be active. So I've got a couple of startups and small businesses I'm running, you want to
Yoni Mazor 32:42
Break it down real quick? Is this something we should look into? What's up with these other startups? Do you want to mention them a little bit? What's the idea behind them?
Devin Miller 32:49
Sure. Yeah. So one of them is it's got mountain green engineering, it's a prototyping and product development firm. It kind of went along with a lot of the work that we're doing with the other businesses, working with startups, and small businesses, and wanting to help them develop the product. So took the engineering side product development side and opened up that firm. So now especially
Yoni Mazor 33:08
This service is a specialty service. Yep. Service. Yeah, the thing with you know, the hydration technology and now its credit to health technology that it's already there. So that's the two layers what's another layer?
Devin Miller 33:21
The third layer was completely something different, which was a port as related to the religion with my church, it was just a religious product. It's called oil balls. It's just for some religion, you know, just kind of a small item that we use with religious services made it more convenient, easier to use. And so started up just a consumer-based product for what is this oil? Yeah, it's an oil. So it's used for religious blessings is this part of the support what kind
Yoni Mazor 33:49
Of oil is olive oil or olive oil, it has to be made somewhere in some way, or this is olive oil.
Devin Miller 33:55
And it’s pure olive oil, we didn't get into the manufacturing and making the oil is more of the packaging, how to make it more convenient and carry around with you and have it available. It was more of how we made it convenient and easy.
Yoni Mazor 34:07
Like you were formulated as it just you're selling the pay, focusing on selling the package or selling the focusing the actual product and then making a brand. Both,
Devin Miller 34:15
I would say we initially started as being just a product that was kind of Sunni or filling a need. It's now evolved into a bigger, bigger product where we have multiple skews of different products, we've got into a lot of making customized religious products. And so it started as more of a product and now it's more of a brand business.
Yoni Mazor 34:33
Nice and this is being sold online, eCommerce, Amazon brick and mortar everywhere. Nowhere
Devin Miller 34:38
Online. So we have a few distributors that will sell it in their brick and mortar but as far as we're primarily online, it's just that we have an E-commerce business as a customer lds.com Okay, so what's calling custom lds.com custom
Yoni Mazor 34:55
Lds.lds.com Got it. Luther’s got it. Sensual. Gmail.com Okay, so you guys once again the third layer is all retail I know in a real read the categories religious, and then another layer.
Devin Miller 35:09
So those are those were at this point that's where those I had those three businesses as well as the law practice,
Yoni Mazor 35:14
Guy. Wow. It's, it’s a pretty interesting spread you have there. Okay, so alright, yeah, those on the side and you're getting to the next station after working a year and a half without from Oregon.
Devin Miller 35:27
Yeah, so that plan saying, Okay, I've got all these companies on the side running them. That's what's up a lot of my time, I also at that point was saying I want to what I wanted to kind of consolidate also, rather than feeling like, hey, doing an attorney by day and these businesses by night, I'd like to be able to, hey, I want to focus on one day on this business another day, I wanted to have a bit more of that freedom and that flexibility. So it's kind of wanting to consolidate a lot of the different businesses that I could have a bit more direction on it. And the other thing that I was finding is with the legal side is I was working for a lot of bigger clients. And yet I liked the startups and small businesses, those are the kind of clientele I like, those are the ones that were kind of the most fun, and I just had a great time. And they're also a lot of times kind of underserved within the business community. And so with all of that, I said, Hey, what I'd want to do is, let's leave the firm that I'm at, I'd like to start my law firm kind of focus on the clientele and the ones that are the clients, I want to work with the technology I want to do, and also that it gives me the ability to more flexibly work on the other businesses. So with that, I left the law firm and started on my law firm and started up my practice. And I've been doing that, and then now been running the law firm as well as the other businesses in
Yoni Mazor 36:38
Yes, it's fair to say you finally spread your wings, wings as an independent lawyer with your terminal and the law firm. And there were 2019 and 2018. So on the verge of 2019. And when you jump into the fray, why do you just start focusing right away on technology, E-commerce, Amazon sellers, all the above
Devin Miller 36:58
All the above. So I had some clientele that I built up over some time. So a portion of them stayed with the firm Are they are they already at some of them came along with me. So I had some of those clients that already built up. And then I just went to work, really marketing and advertising for any startup and small business that look or what would be or wanting our services. So he cast a fairly broad net. And that was everything from E-commerce platforms, it was startups, it was solo inventors, it was small businesses, and kind of building everything from a website doing SEO, doing content marketing, we're doing referral base, and just kind of looking to build up enough of a good foundation for the law firm.
Yoni Mazor 37:38
Guy. Okay, so we know, you know, most of our viewers and listeners and watchers, their, you know, the E-commerce space, or especially on Amazon space. So let's dive into that for a moment. I mean, why would Amazon sellers even need or should consider, you know, patents or trademarks and all that stuff. So give us the rundown on that.
Devin Miller 37:55
Yeah, so there's a couple of different things depending on the business, if you create me, so let's say you create a cool product, put in a ton of red, something unique and different, you're gonna go sell it on Amazon as a consumer-based product, or you know, something that would interfere with the Amazon. Well, if it's in that case if you create something new, it's going to be a patent and you can protect it with patents. The benefit is if you have a patent and somebody else comes along, knocks it off on Amazon, they have internally they have recourse for getting those products taken down. In other words, if you're, if they're infringing your patent, you can go to Amazon and go through their process and take it down.
Devin Miller 38:27
So that's one reason why I do that. Now, let's say, on the other hand, you say no, we didn't create innovation. We said nothing we could patent. But we are creating a great brand. You know, something that has good reviews online that has a lot of are following has a cool product, then you're going to want it then it's trademarking and trademarks are another good way that you can protect it. Because a lot of times what happens particularly in Amazon, is once you start to prove out a popular product, we start to get a lot of reviews, then you start to get a lot of the knock-on some of the knockoffs will start to use the same or same or very similar name of the product to make it confusing, they will also sometimes copy a lot of your images to make it look similar to your product. In other words, they're trying to make it or ride your coattails. And so when you're getting into trademarks or getting into copyrights, it gives you the benefit of having those registered. So as you continue to grow in sales, you can stop competitors from just simply coming along and riding your coattail
Yoni Mazor 39:23
Got Yes, very clear. Appreciate that helps a lot. Now, what's the usually the timeframe and the cost of you know, you know, using these illegal instruments, you know, trademarks and pens. For the most part, it could be Paul ballparking what can they expect from the sellers
Devin Miller 39:38
And everything you're saying from the acquiring them or saying from enforcing them? Or both? Let's
Yoni Mazor 39:44
Start with the first of getting them and then if because you're you know, you're buying defense and he knows how much it costs to buy the defense and once you have it in place, how much does it cost to use the defense? I know it's like you're getting soldiers to defend you Okay, God, I mean, now that you use them as its own different, you know, cost structure. But that's often the basics.
Devin Miller 40:02
Yeah, absolutely. So, to acquire, if I do say kind of an average price, and it does vary, but if you're saying average pan to get through the process, if you're going to be at about 12,012, to $13,000, to get a patent on a given invention, for a, and that's usually over the space of about 18 to 24 months to go through the process to get a patent.
Yoni Mazor 40:25
So murder is not so bad. It's not like 1020 years and millions of dollars, it's right, up to 15 grand, a year and a half to three years. That's kind of the horizon, you're looking at your patent. Yeah,
Devin Miller 40:36
Trademark, you're going to be looking at to go through the whole process through to 2500 $3,000, and probably about your average, we're looking at about nine to 12 months to get a trademark.
Yoni Mazor 40:49
So that's, you know, getting the bind instruments, and now that you have them, you know, somebody showed up copying your patent or using it or your you know, your intellectual property or their filing your trademark. So, you know, ballpark, you know, I know every case is different, but what's the expectation there? What's the spectrum there? Maybe?
Devin Miller 41:07
Yeah, so it depends on which route you want to go. If it was because there are a couple of different ways you can go file a lawsuit, take them to court, and sue them. If on a patent case, if you're gonna go through the full lawsuit, you're probably upwards of six to seven figures. So 100 are somewhere between 100,000 to a million dollars plus, to go through a full legal or legal battle on the patent. So those are pretty expensive. Trademarks, if you're to go for a full legal battle, you're probably 50 to $75,000 as an average, as far as what you're looking at how
Yoni Mazor 41:37
Many years will pertain on the patent side lawsuit, and the trademark,
Devin Miller 41:42
Patent law horizon, anywhere from non-low in three years on the high end, 10 years. So I mean,
Yoni Mazor 41:49
It sounds very heavy duty, it's like a heavy, heavy-duty, you know, it can
Devin Miller 41:53
Drag out for quite a long period, and they can get pretty expensive trade, you're probably most of the time resolving those in two to three years, somewhere around there. Legal Systems flow takes a long time, it gets expensive, and it can be worthwhile. And if you have a good business and you want to defend it, it makes sense to do it. But you do have to go in with the expectation, it's not going to be a quick thing, and it's not going to be cheap
Yoni Mazor 42:18
Guy. But in the meantime, if you're an E-commerce, especially on the marketplace on Amazon, the fact is you have these instruments that will protect you on the marketplace. So that's not going to take years and millions of dollars, they come in the boom, they just remove the violators because you have legal rights. And that's how you exercise protection. And that's mostly what you need anyways because nobody's able to violate you on the biggest marketplace and E-commerce in the world. Okay, they might validate you in a corner somewhere in a dark alley. You can choose if you want to pay millions of dollars to get them off the sheets, or you swallow the pill or you go to local authorities, or whatever it is you can do and use other routes instead of the full-blown court and legal system.
Yoni Mazor 42:52
Okay, very, very cool. Thank you so much for sharing that. And this is pretty much where I tell you this is your focus is your mission helping small you know, startups, small businesses, eCommerce sellers, Amazon sellers will with all this, you know, available instruments and a spectrum of things that you can use, they can use. And also you have the three startups in environments, one of them is, you know, not as involved anymore with them with the health data, and then you know, you have the service services with engineering. And also the third one was, you know, retail in the religious category. So now I kind of want to recap the episode and see what we got so far before we hit the know the photo final notes.
Yoni Mazor 43:29
So we're actually in Arizona, surprisingly. But when you throw to Morgan, Utah, I grew up their formative years, were young, you had the opportunity also with the Father to kind of restore Camaro. Once you became, you know, ready for college you did one year and from 2002 until 2003, from 2003 to 2005, you went on a mission in Taiwan, converted about 10 to 15 families, knocking on you know, countless doors, all in and also picking up Chinese from 2005 until 2013. You kind of you focus your energies, and you know, I'm getting four degrees. And the most I guess meaningful one was the lottery and also the background in engineering. In 2013. You hit the market, professional market, he started working for law firms, and I believe you will work from 2013 until 2015. And rule one law firm 2013 to 17. With another, that's the bigger on the top 100 to 15 to run end of 218. I know you're working for the one that was based in Portland, and then end of 2018 beginning of 2019 You spread your wings and then off you go as you own your law firm the middle IP law satisfied as we mentioned yet three startups. And that's kind of the store we have today. You know, with Devin Miller, share with us and that's we have it correct me so far. That was
Devin Miller 44:52
An awesome summary and hit all the great points. So it was a good highlight reel.
Yoni Mazor 44:56
Nice. Thank you so much for that for sharing. So now when I end up the episode with Tony No, it's the first will be is you know, if somebody wants to reach out and connect and engage, you know, where can they find you and how. And the last thing will be is what is your message of hope and inspiration for entrepreneurs listening out there?
Devin Miller 45:10
Yeah, so people want to connect with me, I'll give three different ways or depending on how they want to connect. So they want to do if they have questions on intellectual property patents, trademarks, copyrights, or anything else for business, they want to schedule a one on one strategy meeting with me, they go to strategy meeting.com links right to my calendar, you can set aside some time we'll have a free session to talk through things.
Devin Miller 45:30
So strategy meeting calm one on one, if they want to find out more about the law firm, they want to find out, you know, what services we offer, what our prices are, we have a ton of content, we have a podcast, we have blogs, we have videos, we have a whole bunch of different content ways to consume it, they can go to law with miller.com, that's an easy way to connect up. And then the last one, if they want to connect with me, I'm not as active on some of the other socials, I am very active on LinkedIn, love LinkedIn.
Devin Miller 45:56
So if they ever want to check out or check me out, check out the profile, they can just go to meet Miller calmly and that direction to my profile. So those are the three ways that they're easy to connect up with me. Now, as far as you know, what kind of one, you know, one-earner, party, and Bob ray of hope type of a thing. You know, first of all, in the dreary, you're not a ray of hope startups are hard, they have to take a lot of them to fail. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of ups and downs. And yet it is more rewarding than I think a lot of or almost anything else as far as your career product, not family, not marriage and those types of things. But on the career side, I work with a ton. And every time it's you know, when you talk with them as hey, I wish I'd get started earlier, I wish I'd get or leave sooner. And I'm absolutely that same way. And so while you're going to hit the ups and downs, take it from hundreds of startups, there are tons of businesses, that it is worthwhile. And you should if you have that, that desire and you want to try it out is gratifying and worthwhile. And you can make it a success if you continue to work at it.
Yoni Mazor 46:57
If you have the desire, go for it. Don't hold back, you know, don't you know, even if you think it's too early, goes for it, do it. And you know, be dedicated to it. You know, Devin demonstrate his dedication or you know, throughout the years, you know, growing up and, and doing the mission and developing all these businesses and also developing his law firm. So coming from him. We know it's true. So I said Devin, thank you so much. Best of luck to you and we're going to go forward. I hope everybody else enjoyed it. Stay safe and healthy the next time
