The Leading Intellectual Property Lawyer for Amazon Sellers | Rich Goldstein
In this Prime Talk Podcast Sponsored by GETIDA – Rich Goldstein - Goldstein Patent Law - Rich founded Goldstein Patent Law more than 25 years ago — and has since become a highly sought-after industry leader. He has a natural ability to explain complex legal topics in simple terms. He uses that to educate and empower his clients, also more information about his life's journey. #RichGoldstein #GoldsteinPatentLaw
About Rich Goldstein - Goldstein Patent Law - At Goldstein Patent Law, we’re on a mission to connect, protect, and educate. We exist to help you protect your valuable idea, with a custom legal strategy. This has driven us for nearly 30 years — making us a national leader in patent law.
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Yoni Mazor (00:05):
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of prime talk. Today, I have a special guest. Today I'm having rich Goldstein. Rich is a patent attorney at Goldstein patent law, which is a leading patent attorney in the Amazon space. So Rich, welcome to the show.
Rich Goldstein (00:19):
Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.
Yoni Mazor (00:21):
Our pleasure. So today's episode is gonna be all about you, the story of rich Goldstein. You're gonna show us everything. Where are you from? Where did you grow up? How'd you begin your professional career station to station until where you are today with the world of e-commerce and especially Amazon. So I guess with that further ado, let's jump right into it.
Rich Goldstein (00:41):
Ok. Sounds good. And by the way, just correct my last statement. Thank you so much for having me. I said, thank you so much for being here, but you're always here. I'm the guest and I appreciate being a guest here on your podcast. So thank you so much. Thank you.
Yoni Mazor (00:55):
And on a personal, I was kind of looking for this for a long time, so it's a privilege.
Rich Goldstein (01:00):
Yeah, me too. To me, you too. Absolutely. and so we wanna roll it back far. So where am I from? I was born in Staten Island, New York, and I kind of grew up there, went to a pre-engineering high school which then kind of led me towards electrical engineering. I went to Stony Brook for electrical engineering.
Yoni Mazor (01:22):
Hold on. So growing on an island, your parents were in the background of professionals, they were entrepreneurs. What was kind of what's the environment at home for you?
Rich Goldstein (01:30):
Not at all. Entrepreneurial, like, so very, kind of you know, risk-averse, let's say. So I had a strong entrepreneur or streak when I was young and people would say like, well, where did that come from? Where do you come from? And
Yoni Mazor (01:48):
What'd you do? What were those little you know, shining moments of entrepreneurial when You’re?
Rich Goldstein (01:52):
So I mean, first of all, my dad was an engineer you know, for the city of New York. And he worked for the city of New York, I think more than 40 years until he retired. Like, so from the time he got out of college until the time that he retired, you know, he was working in this one job. Right. And so just me as an entrepreneur was very far outside of that background, very conservative. They always bought everything for cash, never credit, you know? They save up enough money to buy the car. I mean their house, they had a mortgage for, of course, but in terms of anything else that they spent money on, they never ran credit card bills. They are never kind of got credit to like buy an automobile and things like that. So very conservative. And you know, so with me though, like I was like from a young age, I was just like come wanted to make money. I wanted to open businesses when, if, when I was seven years old, I would've told you to like, I'm gonna have five different corporations. And I was into electronics as a kid. So I'd say I'm gonna have an electronics parts company. I'm gonna have a software company. I'm going to have a company that sells computers. And I had to hold on.
Yoni Mazor (03:08):
So all this is seven years old or already as a teenager. So what, this was like the sixties, seventies, eighties (60s, 70s, 80s)
Rich Goldstein (03:14):
Yoni Mazor (03:17):
So in the seventies, the awareness of electronics is gonna be a booming thing and software was also that's the early stage of Silicon Valley. That's interesting
Rich Goldstein (03:23):
Exactly. It was well before, you know. So I was seven years old. My mom called the professor at the College of Staten Island and said like, you know, he wants to learn about computers and what should he do? And so she got me to be able to audit a computer class at colleges dot island when I was seven years old. So I said, I wasn't taking it for credit. I was just able to attend. And we wrote programs and basic programming language. We wrote them on punch cards, which was like back in the day before they didn't even have a computer there. The computer was located at the city university in New York and Washington Heights. And they had terminals where they could just feed the cards in one by one, the computer in Manhattan would run the program and then provide the result back at the college of Staten Island. So I early stages, very early computer stuff. So that's kind of like how I got started with technology. And again, like and I wanted to have my computer. I wanted to buy my computer and I didn't have the money. And so that was one of the things that encouraged me to
Yoni Mazor (04:32):
How much sure. Computers back then, like a fortune that's like only for big operations government. Right. Cause it fills a whole room. It was like, right. It's a massive beast.
Rich Goldstein (04:40):
Well, around that same time radio shack introduced their first home computer called the tiers 80, which was $599 for the most basic one, which $599 in 1977 was significant. And my father made a deal with me that if I was able to save up half of the money that he would pay the other half and significant for, you know, he was, my mom was not working. It was just him working at the time. And I don't know what his salary was, but I bet you, it was in the twenties 20,000 per year or so. So that's a significant offer and, you know, he told me later, he never expected that I'd be able to come up with half of the money, but I did.
Yoni Mazor (05:27):
And how'd you done it in a nutshell, like, how'd you be able to come up with 300 bucks? How long did it take you though?
Rich Goldstein (05:32):
It took me about two years. And I was shoveling snow and you know, so I always hoping for a snowstorm so I could go shovel the neighbors. And also at a certain point, I was selling gum in school. I brought gum as I got it at discount wholesale and then I brought it in and sold it at retail with, for a nice profit. So I saved up some money that way.
Yoni Mazor (06:02):
Let's say you had the target, you had the destination, you made it happen. It took two years, whatever, you can get your hands on to make cash. You did it, you know that was your end of the bargain with your father. And he came out with the cash and he said he always pays cash. And for him it was, he's making about 20,000 a year, one percent. It's one, half percent of its salary. Right.
Rich Goldstein (06:18):
So it's significant when you know when you are paying the bills and everything with one salary. so June 5th, 1979, I went and bought that computer
Yoni Mazor (06:32):
Before we jump into other things. But what'd you do with it, anything significant with that computer changed your life was the whole or was like put aside after a little while they
Rich Goldstein (06:39):
Used to you know, write programs. And like I thought about actually making a program to sell because it was the very beginning of the software industry. That like, it was all like mom and pop software developers who like they created something. And then they put an ad in the back of a computer magazine about their program that they created for whatever, for managing your household recipes or something like that. And they'd sell it for like, you know, $495 or $995. And I never actually did that. I never actually launched that, but that’s kind of what the environment was like back then a computer.
Yoni Mazor (07:19):
I didn't realize that. Got it very cool. Okay. So let's so you go graduate at technical school, right? For engineering in Staten island then? Yes. What's your next move or where do you go?
Rich Goldstein (07:31):
So I went to Stony Brook for electrical engineering and something happened in high school too. That kind of changed my trajectory there, which is that I started playing in a band and I played keyboards in a club wedding band. And, so you know, one of the things that came out of that though, was that like the band was mostly made up of three brothers. And they had a fam, they were a bit older. They were already working and they had a family business and they sold beauty supplies. They sold supplies to all the beauty salons in the area throughout Staten Island and Brooklyn. And I was working on the weekends with one of the brothers and where he had his route going around to different hair salons. And so what I decided to do is when I went away to college, I decided I was going to open my own business, kind of selling beauty supplies to the salons out there in long island. So basically I bought supplies from my friends there, with the beauty supply in Brooklyn. And I created essentially my route, my own business in long island. And it just involved cold sales, just walking into a salon cold saying, you know, I've got all of these different.
Yoni Mazor (08:55):
So saying the playing in the band with them led you to the relationship with them. So you were able to buy inventory and do wholesale to beauty salons in the area. But I think I see kind of a little bit of synergy because beauty salons, that's what ladies or people go to prepare their hair for the wedding. So you can get built to business as you go visit. Right. So kinda once there's the other so interesting combination for both. So keyboard, you learn how to play keyboard at home. You learn piano or something, or Yourself taught.
Rich Goldstein (09:20):
I started taking piano lessons when I was in the third grade.
Yoni Mazor (09:25):
Me too. Interesting. Okay. How many years did you learn? I saw you playing in Texas. That's what I remember. You were playing. I saw you at the billion-dollar sales summit in Austin, Texas, that little haunted house that went through that, a piano. And then I remember you were kind of you know, playing with the cable.
Rich Goldstein (09:41):
that's right. Just sort of, you know, playing along with the, whatever was playing on the,
Yoni Mazor (09:45):
Yeah improvising. So cute. So how many years did you learn?
Rich Goldstein (09:49):
So probably about a dozen years or so I took,
Yoni Mazor (09:54):
I did six years. I learned six years.
Rich Goldstein (09:56):
But then, you know, again I was in bands and it went from there, but, you know, it's funny. I trace all, it's very interesting that we're talking about that because I trace all of that. I trace being a patent attorney back to that.
Yoni Mazor (10:09):
How's that? Well, what's the connection as far as you see it.
Rich Goldstein (10:13):
Well, I'll give you the pieces as we've talked about them so far, which is that. So basically, because an aunt of mine moved away and left us a piano I got to take piano lessons in the third grade because I did that. I joined the band playing keyboards and because I joined the band I got to work in the beauty supply business and got interested in sales. And because of that, I started my route when I got to college. So when I started my business kind of and I became very interested in business. And so then here are a couple more pieces. And so then now I'm studying electrical engineering. I realized that the reality of being an engineer was that you'd work on the same thing day in and day out.
Rich Goldstein (11:00):
You don't get to work on cool things every day. You get to work on a piece of a ventilation system for an airplane. And then you work on that for five years. And that combined with my interest in business, told me I wanna do something more than be in New York. And, that's what led me to patent law is someone had suggested you finish your engineering degree and you go to law school, then you could become a patent lawyer because you need to have both to do so. And so it was the piano that led me to the piano lessons that led me to play in the band, which led me to have my own sales business, which made me interested in doing something more than being an engineer. And so that led me to patent law.
Yoni Mazor (11:51):
What an interesting path. I would never see it come like that way, but, you know, that's, what's the beauty of life. It's just authentic. All right.
Rich Goldstein (11:59):
So and that's why you asked the questions to unfold the story, because there's always an interesting story there, right?
Yoni Mazor (12:04):
That's my joy here. Okay. So let's hit into you I guess graduating from law school, let's start stamping the years on this. So which year did you graduate?
Rich Goldstein (12:15):
I graduated in 1994.
Yoni Mazor (12:17):
You graduate. And then when you graduate, what do you do? What's your first station? Do you dive into the actual industry, you know, practicing law or you still did business or did both?
Rich Goldstein (12:28):
I started my firm right away. Which is kind of unheard of you,
Yoni Mazor (12:35):
or what'd you do with the business, with the beauty supply business cashed out?
Rich Goldstein (12:40):
Yeah, I just kind of it was reliant on me and those relationships going into to visit those customers. I kept it going for a little while longer. And then eventually I just had them work directly with my friends in Brooklyn who had the beauty supply company.
Yoni Mazor (12:58):
So you're in between man, you build a relationship and you just connect them and moved on. So everybody was happy. Exactly, Got it. So 1994 we're 2021 at this point, but now we gotta cover those, you know, that timeframe with your career, with your legal career finally, right. Let's, take us there. So let's jump into significant stations in your legal career. Some I know since 1994, so that's pretty bold by the way. How did you have the, I guess the ambition to just start your firm and dive right into it?
Rich Goldstein (13:27):
Well, it's interesting. It kind of happened. If we roll it back a year, it's in 1993, I worked during the summer for a patent law firm, like a rather prestigious patent law firm. And the job I had was called summer associate, a very prestigious job to get, and pretty much the idea is that you work the summer and you get to work for different attorneys at the firm. And at the end of the summer, hopefully, you'll get an offer to have a job after graduation. And this is kind of the path that most law school students seek out.
Yoni Mazor (14:05):
Is that law firm still around, by the way?
Rich Goldstein (14:07):
They imploded about 10 years ago, but that's, I guess that's a whole another story but the point is that they, so I got this prestigious job, which, you know, so summer in 1993 for a thousand dollars a week, so a thousand dollars a week to have an internship, you know, and like 27 years ago, that was pretty good.
Yoni Mazor (14:33):
And I'm surprised they paid you, so it was good.
Rich Goldstein (14:35):
No, they did like, that's the thing is like they kind of want to give you a taste of what it is to work there. And then like, you know, as you go into work you go in for this like internship and like kind of like, no one gives you any direction. No one tells you, like, when you're supposed to come in in the morning, no one tells you when you're supposed to leave. No one tells you kinda like what your work is. You have to kind of go around and get to know some of the partners and maybe they'll give you a project to work on. So there's a bit of a mind game going on with it too. And then like about two weeks in I had friends that were going out and this was in Manhattan, 48th and third.
And I had friends which were going out. So I think it was merchants the bar in Manhattan on the first avenue there. And I was like I'll go meet them. So, and at 6:00 PM, I got on the elevator headed down toward the lobby. And one of the other associates from the firm got on the elevator with me and he looked at me and he said only half a day. And I was just like, you know what is this, you know like I don't want that job or for, I don't wanna work here, you know, like, it's kind of funny because like, again, they don't tell you what time to work until they just wait until you say like, well, maybe it's okay to go home now or, and then like that, this is what it is. And I kind of, at that moment,
Yoni Mazor (16:04):
Just saying it wasn't straightforward, it was kinda mindset with the boundaries and you were testing it, you got this weird attitude or weird reaction. And it felt like this is not the place for you.
Rich Goldstein (16:12):
And I was like, it went from being like, this is the golden ticket to like, this is not for me, never, again, I am going to work at a law firm. And I decided at that moment that I was gonna spend the rest of the summer learning as much as I could because I was gonna start my own when I graduated.
Yoni Mazor (16:31):
So that was a pivotal moment for you. That was your push. So we needed
Rich Goldstein (16:34):
Interesting. That was the push. And so I graduated from law school. I started my firm.
Yoni Mazor (16:40):
What New York City Manhattan right away or where'd you start? Basement somewhere in Staten island or what was it?
Rich Goldstein (16:46):
Well in my apartment in Staten Island. And I had a duplex and there was a door downstairs and there was a door upstairs into the hallway and when clients would come by, I'd have them come to the second floor and then I Velcro a sign on the door you know, for gold scene and associates. So like I just plopped it on the door when the client was, is coming by.
Yoni Mazor (17:15):
And then when they're done, boom, you take it off. It's your apartment. Exactly.
Rich Goldstein (17:18):
Exactly. So that's kind of how that went and but it was interesting, you know, and starting you know, like it was the obvious problem with starting on your own, like that is you don't have any clients what'd you do.
Yoni Mazor (17:37):
how'd you grown from that point? Well
Rich Goldstein (17:39):
Actually what I did is I started in a magazine for inventors. And so it was a magazine for inventors and I advertised in my magazine. And so that funneled people towards my law firm.
Yoni Mazor (17:56):
When you're saying your magazine, what do you mean your magazine? It wasn't yours.
Rich Goldstein (17:59):
Well I mean, I created a magazine,
Yoni Mazor (18:03):
you created a magazine.
Rich Goldstein (18:05):
Yoni Mazor (18:06):
You created content, meaning a magazine for a minute. How does that work out?
Rich Goldstein (18:11):
It worked out fine. I mean, I did it for a couple of years. But the real point of it was to send business toward.
Yoni Mazor (18:19):
That is unbelievable. That's one of the most authentic creative things I've heard. My father's a lawyer by the way. I'm full disclosure. I never, I mean, that's a good interesting technique and this is what for, it was like, you know, any business, nobody knows me. Let's create content for them. Right. A magazine, which in itself it's someone data task, but behind the scene is really to kind of be able to promote your services there, magazine ever made money or no, that's a question.
Rich Goldstein (18:47):
No, it never made money. But you really, the point of it was leggen. I mean, essentially I was doing content marketing in the nineties, but in print form rather than, you know, on web pages,
Yoni Mazor (18:56):
So it's free delivery. Right. You just send it out to where? to companies or what was the distribution like different things?
Rich Goldstein (19:02):
You know, one of them was that there were a bunch of different patent libraries across the country. There were, I think have 70 different libraries that had microfilm collections of patents where people can go to do their patent searching. And so I contacted all of them and showed them the magazine and said, we could send you a copy to, you know, send you however many copies, fill in the blank to have, you know, circulation for you to kind of for people to use as reference. And we could also send you free copies to give to people that are coming to the library and fill in the blank. How many copies do you want?
Yoni Mazor (19:42):
So which were the libraries?
Rich Goldstein (19:45):
They were around the country and they're called patent depository libraries,
Yoni Mazor (19:48):
Things by 70 of them, as you said,
Rich Goldstein (19:50):
Yoni Mazor (19:52):
got it. That's their distribution centers
Rich Goldstein (19:54):
Basically, and so, I got them to either, then some of them want to just a copy in hand for reference, some of them took me up on sending them like a hundred copies to give out to people. And so that's pretty much, that was the main distribution.
Yoni Mazor (20:10):
That's great. And right away a work people reaching out and the business role from there.
Rich Goldstein (20:14):
Exactly. So that gave me a start. And then at the same time, I did a couple of other things. I had a class with the learning annex in New York, LA, and San Francisco where I was doing a course called inventions. One on one, people would come to that. Like typically every time they did a course like that, I would have about 30 people there. And usually, I get about two clients from the course, like a three-hour evening course.
Yoni Mazor (20:42):
Got it. Okay. So content marketing, actual educational platforms right. That was enough to roll it up. And okay. What was the next station internally as a business there?
Rich Goldstein (20:53):
And then, and then also I was doing yellow pages. So I started you know, that was a little bit slower to start because you have to get into next year's book. So I couldn't start that right from the beginning.
Yoni Mazor (21:05):
That's classic. That's a directory. That's kind of that's the expected route. Let's put it this way, but being able to lecture with, with the education that is, you need to have some sort of caliber. And also that director is creative in hindsight, I think with the 70 distribution centers called libraries, which act as their fulfillment center, you know, they have their demand built-in, which is pretty genius on your end to spot that and realize that and take the initiative. Thanks. Okay. Tell, take us more you know what's our next station with the firm?
Rich Goldstein (21:39):
So pretty much the thing that I did too is then I expanded to other cities. I created satellite offices in LA, in San Francisco, so that and I kind of ran it virtual. I had all, I had the biggest ad on the patent attorney and all the yellow page books in California. And so I had people calling and the calls were directed to my office in New York. And if they wanted to come in and see me, then I would set up an appointment for the day I was gonna be in LA and then the day, I was gonna be in San Francisco. So I did that one.
Yoni Mazor (22:13):
So, that was an extension of you all these offices settle, lot offices or extension of you. So you're trying to do Legion and those regions.
Rich Goldstein (22:21):
Exactly. And so then I went out to have physical appointments with people once a month in each place.
Yoni Mazor (22:28):
Also very innovative. Very cool. Okay. But let's touch for a moment, actually like the actual work, like, you know, pat attorney. So what was a classic route for you? Any special, like specialty you were able to hone in during these years, or even today, or like, let's talk about the actual work like to give our audience an idea of what does all mean? I'm sure it's very broad. It's so probably into it.
Rich Goldstein (22:50):
Well, the actual work, I mean, it's really, it's about understanding the invention and being able to understand the differences from what other people have done before so that we could present it to the patent office.
Yoni Mazor (23:07):
So the ambition is the classic ambition is there are inventions. You wanna be able to get a patent for your clients. Right. And as far as I know, correct me, if I'm wrong, there are two types of patents. You got the design, right? And then you got the utilities. So if you wanna elaborate on that a little bit, give us a crash course and panel law.
Rich Goldstein (23:27):
Exactly. So then design patent is for just the physical appearance of a product, what they call the ornamental appearance of it. And a utility patent is more of what you think of when you think of an invention being patented. In other words, like when you think of, and like someone working in their garage to solve a problem, to come up with a better version of something. And so they come up with a product that's different from ones that have been done before it's structurally different and it's for a functional reason, whatever the differences are, it's got a new lever, it's got a new spring. It's something it's function differences from functional purpose. That's what a utility patent is for. So that's usually what people think of when they're thinking of a patent is.
Yoni Mazor (24:12):
Eureka has an invention. Nobody did that. Yes. Kinda, you know, that thing that kinda way before. That's February utility.
Rich Goldstein (24:20):
Exactly. Design. So just about the shape.
Yoni Mazor (24:23):
So on a daily, when you get your leads, you get your clients, it's understanding their invention really to the most inner details and say, Hey, and you search around. To see what's out there. And if there's any clash with anybody, if this course is clear, you go through that process. It takes a little bit, bit of a while. You get that patent for them and they're happy, then they can go grow their business in their way. And we have at least some sort of protection from the law
Rich Goldstein (24:46):
Exactly. And that's pretty much what I've done through my career is I've worked with thousands of people obtained over 2000 patents to date
Yoni Mazor (24:58):
And anything worth mentioning here or jumping names or
Rich Goldstein (25:01):
No, I mean, it's all like industry-specific or you know,
Yoni Mazor (25:08):
public companies, anything that you're proud of during these years, I was like, you know, for you as a badge of honor, or as a general with all these badges or,
Rich Goldstein (25:21):
I mean, look, there's just a lot there, I guess a lot of different directions, nothing I'm particularly honing in on at the moment. But I've mostly worked with physical products or and software throughout my career. Those have been the main areas.
Yoni Mazor (25:36):
Got it. I wanna ask, I guess, throw this wrench here with you know drug companies, right? Pharmaceuticals. They have panels, on new medication. How does that work tickets to them? You know, that niche or what is that all about?
Rich Goldstein (25:50):
Say that again with,
Yoni Mazor (25:51):
Pharmaceutical companies, I know they have patents when they have a new drug come out, they usually have a patent. So that's a utility that would be, it's not a design because the capsule nobody cares about.
Rich Goldstein (26:00):
It would be utilized. It would be for the combination of ingredients that makes it do what it does.
Yoni Mazor (26:05):
And okay. Let's is it different than any other patents in terms of the amount of time you get protected? Is it seven years? What's the timeframe of protection or expiration of patents? How does that all work?
Rich Goldstein (26:16):
For a Utility patent, the timeframe is 20 years from when you first apply.
Yoni Mazor (26:21):
So nobody can copy. Nobody can replicate.
Rich Goldstein (26:25):
Exactly. Well then, no one can copy the invention that was embraced by the patent. And you know, that gets a little technical of what is the territory that the patent covers. That's what I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't understand is like a lot of times they'll talk as if like, that product, it's got a patent number on it. So you can't make that product. Well, no, the patent doesn't cover like just like the product, the patent covers something about the product, some combination of features that were new at the time that they applied for the patent. And that's what the patent application focused on. It's like, well, you're putting A, B, and C together. No one has ever done that before. That's what the patent Is for.
Yoni Mazor (27:01):
So you're holding a microphone. If somebody's listening to this, he's holding a microphone. So let's take the microphone as an example, right? So if you see a microphone that says patent or number on it doesn't mean that you cannot make a microphone. Now it means that something inside this microphone, that specific brand-specific brand or whatever has something unique inside of it, that component is patented. Not the whole microphone is patented. Therefore, if you wanna make a microphone or you can probably still micro make a microphone, but the way you make it, just check that it's not being in any components or functions on the microphone are not protected by patent law, Patent number.
Rich Goldstein (27:32):
Well, you need to find out what that patent stands for. Because like, if there was a patent number in this microphone, the patent could be for some circuitry in there, the patent could be for maybe like, there's something about the way the holes at the top here are configured or like the way that they're arranged in a pattern that helps the sound propagate better. Then it like, you know, that's the thing that you can copies. You can prop the way that's configured.
Yoni Mazor (27:58):
That configuration, that functions by doing anything alternative to it. That it's your original by all means. You're good to go on that.
Rich Goldstein (28:06):
But the goal is always that the patent covers the thing that people want about it. So I'll give if the thing that makes this microphone great is the way that those holes are configured on the top of the microphone. And that's what the patent covers. Then now your patent is effective at preventing competition.
Yoni Mazor (28:23):
Because on the marketing, sorry, it touches the marketing component where consumers, I want that whole micro, those special holes.
Rich Goldstein (28:30):
I want that. That's what, that's the reason I wanna buy the mic. you know other people can't copy that. Like then they'll think, well, maybe it's not worth even bothering the reason, the whole reason they to copy it was because of that. So that's the way you need to investigate what the patent stands for. But now here's the real trick to the whole thing is that when people go to get their patent, what they don't realize this, they don't realize that the patent is gonna cover some special combination of features. And like, here's the trick. You can get a patent that's big and covers a whole new concept. If that whole new concept is new. Most of the time though, it's not as new as they think it is. And then it's like, okay. we think that A, B, and C, like, that's an awesome product.
Can we patent this? They go to a patent attorney do the research and look, other things are close to it. Maybe other people did A, B, and C. But the patent attorney says like, well, you know what, you're adding DNA onto it. I can get you a patent. What the patent doesn't explain is we're getting a patent for A B C D E and now for someone to infringe, they need to copy it with A, B, C, D, E. And if they don't, then they're not infringing. And then the person sees, they copied my idea. Why can't we go after them? Like, no, there is a difference because they don't have DNA.
Rich Goldstein (29:53):
It's like, see that you change one thing and you get around the pad. That's what everybody tells me. But the truth of it is they didn't invent it, to begin with. They thought they invented it.
Yoni Mazor (30:04):
They added a few links basically to the chain. So I already own the whole chain. No, the chain was kind of there before and everybody adds a link until the chain has its way. Now they could protect only that extra link and the chain. That's the only thing you, kind of protection if somebody copies that sequence.
Rich Goldstein (30:20):
Exactly. And so that's the thing is the thing you wanna know, which would make the difference between whether you spend your money on a patent or why, whether you don't bother is can you get a patent on A, B, and C because all you really, the first person to do this thing that wanna market. So if the thing you wanna market is the same as the thing that you can patent, then you're in good shape. But a lot of times that's not the case and people don't understand that. And that's why, you know, I'm passionate about educating people about this stuff, about patents, so that they can make good decisions about when to go for a patent and when not to.
Yoni Mazor (30:54):
So, that's what we want. That's a good opportunity actually, to give us, you know, crash course to this world in the domain. So appreciate that. Okay. I wanna kind of continue your journey, how you went into the world of e-commerce because it seemed like, you know, 1994, when he started, it was, you know, you know this is before the Amazon ages. Right. So take us to the trajectory of how'd you what was the evolution for your law, firm into the world of eCommerce and especially Amazon.
Rich Goldstein (30:21):
Yeah. Cool. Well, I think a couple of steps that happened before that, let me just kind of fill them in quickly. So I in the early, you know, like what you call the decade, the tens like 2011, 12. About a decade ago.
Yoni Mazor (31:37):
Rich Goldstein (01:44):
I was going to a lot of events, a lot of innovation events, like in Europe, and people would ask me like, well, why are you here? Like, you know, like, what's the point? And I was like, I'm not exactly sure I'm gonna monetize it, but I was creating a lot of relationships and I was attending a lot of events. I was speaking at a lot of events. I wasn't sure what the monetary path would be until one day in 2015, when I got a call from the American bar association, from the American bar association publishing. And they asked me if I would write a book to explain to entrepreneurs in plain English, how patents work and I was like, that's amazing. That's an amazing honor. People are always pitching the ABA on having them publish their books. So like, they're asking, will you publish my book? Meanwhile, they're asking me,
Yoni Mazor (32:28 ):
They're asking you to publish a book from scratch.
Rich Goldstein (32:32):
They asked me to write the book. But they contacted me. It wasn't like I had to pitch them.
Yoni Mazor (32:36):
And what do you think that is? I mean, what was a connection? Did you ever reach out to them? Do you have any relationship with them?
Rich Goldstein (32:42):
They told me that the reason was that they saw how I was out there in the world, kind of going to events and connecting with different channels. And they said, that's what we want in an author is someone who's out there. Not someone who's sitting at their desk.
Yoni Mazor (33:00):
So your boots are on the ground. Not only are you able to deliver the patents to your clients, your boots on the ground and standing, in layman terms, what are they all on the stand? What's their mindset and then bridge with the gap that is needed and, you know, with using the book, I guess,
Rich Goldstein (33:15):
Exactly, Well, that’s how they sell books is they have an author who's out there. you know, like if they have an author write a book that's just in their office all the time, they're never gonna sell any books. Got it. So, that's the reason they asked me to write this book, which, was probably the best credibility thing I could ever do is be the guy who wrote the consumer guide for you?
Yoni Mazor (33:30 ):
No, they reached out in 2015. And how long did it take you to write the book?
Rich Goldstein (33:35 ):
it took, just about a year, published in 2016. Okay.
Yoni Mazor (33:37 ):
Let's give it a shout-out.
Rich Goldstein (33:40):
It's the ABA consumer guide to obtaining a patent. you could find it on Amazon, but I often also, send them to people who are, who wanna learn about the process. Like, I, again, I'm passionate about educating people about this.
Yoni Mazor (33:57):
And so let me get this straight. So this is the American bar association and the name of the book is obtaining a patent,
Rich Goldstein (34:02 ):
the ABA Consumer guide to obtaining a patent.
Yoni Mazor (34:05 ):
Got it. Very good. Reach Goldstein. Wow. How many pages? it looks like 200. Almost 300.
Rich Goldstein (34:08):
Almost 200. Got it. Exactly.
Yoni Mazor (34:16 ):
Very cool. So 2016, you publish and what happens in an earthquake? You just got flooded and what happened?
Rich Goldstein (34:24 ):
Well, I'll tell you what happened here, which leads me to e-commerce too. I've been intending this event called, trafficking conversion summit for a long time and, I have always been interested in marketing, as you can see, and
Yoni Mazor (34:39 ):
You have the marketing flare built-in. That's pretty remarkable and it makes all makes sense now,
Rich Goldstein (34:45 ):
Yeah, Thank You. And so like, they had this mastermind called war room, which was 25,000 to join. and I had this book coming out and I was like, let me join a mastermind to be the $25,000 kick in the butt to make sure that I followed through and got all these marketing things done to launch my book. So I joined the war room. I joined, I found, I realized that I was surrounded by people that needed help with patents and trademarks. And so, well,
Yoni Mazor (35:10):
Let me get this straight, hold on, you published a book two 16 and said, I gotta be able to mark get this better. So traffic and conversion, they have a special, you know, mastermind track, which is 25,000 for you to learn a Sponsor.
Rich Goldstein (35:26):
Be a, being a group. Exactly.
Yoni Mazor (35:28 ):
To be an entrepreneur to learn, how to track, you know? And grow traffic and convert, people to buy a book
Rich Goldstein (35:39):
Exactly. To be in and to be with a seven to the nine-figure business owner. Got it. So I joined that group and when I got there, I realized that the other people in the group needed help with patents and trademarks. So that was good. So digital,
Yoni Mazor (35:50):
That's what I called built-in business. That's an instant ROI. That's amazing.
Rich Goldstein (35:54):
Exactly. But then one of the people in that group was Steve Simonson. Oh. And then like, and so Steve was like, you know what, come to my mastermind up in Seattle, like Steve Simonson around mastermind called catalyst 88, which was for Amazon sellers. And he's like, come to my mastermind and talk about patents. And I did, and I went to and about patents for an hour, with lots of questions. And in the end, four of the 25 people there became my client. And I was like, you know what, this is an even betterment better niche. And then I met Chad Rubin, and, he was, speaking at war room and he said you think, e-com a good niche for you. He said, come to prosper. I'll introduce you to everyone. I know. So I went to prosper, hold on.
Yoni Mazor (36:42):
This was 2016 after the first prosper show. So you came to 2017, the second prosper show.
Rich Goldstein (36:47):
I think that's correct. And then,
Yoni Mazor (36:49):
So just for Chad Rubin, he was one of the co-founders at the prosper show, along with my current partner and CEO a Wiener. Right. He's also a co-sponsor. Mean a co-founder of that. So exactly. It's funny how the, you know, the chain link and also Steve Simonon is also one of the founders I believe of empowering. It's become a cooperative, good that's out there and also very, very active in, the selling community. So, an Interesting profile is what you've been around with.
Rich Goldstein (37:13):
So, I and, so then I went to prosper. He introduced me to everyone. He met, he knows as he promised and you know, some of those people were like Manny Coats and Kevin King and like, they had me on their Illuminati mastermind. And then I later I spoke at Silicon and I've just, I've been speaking at Amazon events. and, I, at various like masterminds and like probably the best-known patent attorney in the Amazon space. And it's been fun, but I think that the lesson that ties it all together is that it's all about relationships. You know, relationships are the foundation of accomplishment. it's like, whatever you seek to do, it's all possible through people. And, all of these stories that I told if I got here were just really all about people and how relationships brought me to the next level.
Yoni Mazor (38:04):
One thing it seems to me like you keep on pulling on threads and it is pulling you to interesting directions and success is, kind of beyond these corners that you never thought that will, bring out all these potential. So let me ask you about, I guess the firm itself, how big is the team? Is it still just you flying solo or this, a whole operation behind you? What's the firm work on that?
Rich Goldstein (38:25):
I've got 11 people on my team and I've got great people working with me. I've got, you know, great, attorneys and, admin people, two of my admin people, one's with me for 20 years, the other one's with me for 10 years.
Yoni Mazor (38:41):
And, so over the years, you, hold on. So when did you start building the team since you opened in 1994 or,
Rich Goldstein (38:48 ):
from the very beginning. Exactly. So right away
Yoni Mazor (38:50):
About more, you know, lawyers and associates, to work and, you know, actual to do the work and deliver on the promise.
Rich Goldstein (38:58 ):
Exactly. I don't think there, you know, there was maybe one little period there when I was mostly on my own. like I kind of semi in the latter part of the first decade of, you know, 2000, what, like 2005
Yoni Mazor (39:19 ):
Wanted to retire? Why, what was the trigger for you?
Rich Goldstein (39:23):
Having my son, you know, when I have my son, I was like, you know what, I wanna spend time at home. I wanna be, so
Yoni Mazor (39:28 ):
Was your firstborn as,
Rich Goldstein (39:32):
Yes, exactly. And so, like, I wanted to spend time with family and I was like, you know what, like, and, man, like this would open a whole can of worms if we went into it. But I also kind of, got involved running another organization that did, kind of like personal growth workshops. So that's a whole nother conversation, but the point is like, at that moment, I think I had whittled down my practice for a couple of years where I just, my assistant had worked with me part-time she had had some babies also. And so she was working with me just part-time and that was probably the smallest my business ever was.
Yoni Mazor (40:06 ):
So the flame started, you know, in 1994 started to kind of wind down a little bit in 2015, maybe 16 in, or sorry, 2005, maybe 2006, 2007, and then we got re-flamed. And how come what happened when you basically re-flamed it or went back to the intensity? What was that trigger there?
Rich Goldstein (40:24 ):
Well, one of the triggers was I realized that I wasn't, financially ready to be retired. There we go.
Yoni Mazor (40:33):
It's a good enough incentive.
Rich Goldstein (40:36):
So that was kind of it. So I just, you know, and I'd gone through all this stuff and I was involved in the personal growth space and like you know, I actually kind of hated my job back in around 2004 or so, but then I got,
Yoni Mazor (40:48 ):
your first decade, you did a decade. You kind of start to burn out, maybe it a little bit, you stuck in the same place, so to speak in all these dimensions you had a kid, you had a family, you're building a family. That's exciting. That's new, it's refreshing. You wanna commit more to that?
Rich Goldstein (41:01):
And then I got involved in coaching and personal growth and stuff like that, then I came back to it again, like 2009 and I loved it. And I was like, what's the difference? I same job different me. So it's like, I have grown.
Yoni Mazor (41:11):
So let's touch on the growth pattern. So you say you were head of this association or something or this organization for personal growth. And when did it start?
Rich Goldstein (41:22):
well, they started, did you start jumping in to help them to grow it? So I, what
Yoni Mazor (41:26):
Year? What year did you
Rich Goldstein (41:30):
Start there? 2005 I jumped in. Okay.
Yoni Mazor (41:33):
At the same time, you're kind of retiring. So that fulfills your time. Is it something more aspirational? I would say so 2005 until which year,
Rich Goldstein (41:40):
Yoni Mazor (41:44):
Got it. So maybe that, those three, four years that's where you, kind of needed to reignite in 2009 saying, you know what, I'm back on track. I'm more mature. I said, what I need, I also financial, I need this. And I'm comfortable. Exactly. I built the whole business. I got roots ground, you know, on the ground on this. So I gotta keep building it very well.
Rich Goldstein (42:02):
So I, like I said, during the time, I think I grew an awful lot, and then I came back to it and it was like, I hated it before now. I loved it. It was the same job, just different from me. And so then again, I started growing a team, and you know, brought some more attorneys on board and more, more staff and got more involved in marketing and different ways. And so, like that was kind of the, beginning of that era.
Yoni Mazor (42:35):
What your situation today on the daily, you still grind in the actual law of it, or you are more involved in running the business, developing the business marketing the business, packaging it,
Rich Goldstein (42:45):
Well, it varies. I mean, like I'm very, I would say I spend probably be two-thirds of my time, running the business and maybe a third of my time, working in the business, working in the business. Lately, though it's been crazy. I mean, I've got like, in terms of the amount of time I'm spending working, as an attorney, this, because there's just so much demand right now for my attention. And so I'm working on some pretty significant projects that have me far more in the business than I would choose to probably.
Yoni Mazor (43:18 ):
So to give us a snapshot, you know, where, coming to the fourth quarter of 2021. Give us the mood in terms of panel law and the world of e-commerce and Amazon seller. What's a trend let's go going on in like a minute or two.
Rich Goldstein (43:31 ):
Well, I mean, two big things going on right now, is rollups right. And also like neutral evaluations on Amazon. What does that mean? That's like when, someone, accuses other ASINs of infringing their patent and they, Amazon has a process for handling that
Yoni Mazor (43:57):
let's see the world war of, you know one seller suing another, or attacking another for, you know trademark or intellectual property infringement.
Rich Goldstein (44:08):
Exactly. And, and like I throughout my career, I haven't focused on litigation. I've focused on helping people to protect, but I know so many people in the Amazon space now, and they're all asking for help with this. And so,
Yoni Mazor (44:20):
We've been in terms of litigation to basically on the,
Rich Goldstein (44:30):
well, it's like litigation. It's like this procedure on the Amazon platform with back and forth to figure out of someone's listing should be taken down or not.
Yoni Mazor (44:35):
Got it makes sense. Okay. So aggregation or rollouts mention that's all these aggregators. These are all these, companies that have raised a lot of money to buy an Amazon-born brand, so to speak, and roll them up into a portfolio and you know, make cash so to speak, or do a public offering, whatever it is that they need with their objectives. But you're helping with, those dimensions on the product level.
Rich Goldstein (44:56):
I help them figure out if like the person who's selling them, the business that they're about to write a seven or eight-figure check for. Did they have the IP that they say they do?
Yoni Mazor (45:06):
Got it. So for your auditing capabilities of the strength of the pens.
Rich Goldstein (45:08):
Yoni Mazor (45:09):
Beautiful. Okay. Got it. So, fascinating stuff. I wanna kind of package the story to see if we got everything correctly. So far born and raised in, Staten Island in New York, right? 1994, you graduated from law school. And you, when you own a firm in the first 10 years you do creative things to build it up. You do nicely, then 2005, start a family feels a little bit of about the grunt. So you think you can retire, but you also at the same dimension, turned into personal growth, for like three, four years. And then 2009 to reignite yourself back into the mix, rebuild the team around 2010, 11.
You start, you know, putting yourself out there with conferences, events you know, exhibitions of, you know, of the sort, one of them happened to be kind of the eCommerce space. So you were getting more and more involved in that domain. 2015, ABA reaches out to you, the American bar association. We see you have boots on the ground. You also can deliver the pants and you do a good job. Write the book for us, the guy booked for, you know, patent law. it takes you about a year, 2016, it's completed, you invest $25,000 to go to, mastermind. The war room mastermind. And then over there, you meet, Steve Simonon and Chad Rubin happen to be, so each one, took you to a different route into the eCommerce space, Steve Simonon with his, mastermind group, and then Chad Ruben with the prosper show, which even today is, probably the most important show for Amazon sales on a global level. and then that's it, you sky rocker from there today, you focus on everything that's happening on the ground, up in the world of e-commerce we touch the aggregators, we touch the world war between ASINs and brands, kind of you know, pursuing each other on patent issues and, intellectual property. Is that kind of the story so far? We got it right?
Rich Goldstein (47:00):
No, that's amazing. Yes, that is,
Yoni Mazor (47:04):
Got it. So thank you so much for sharing. I actually kind of learned a lot of things. Okay. Now I wanna, finalize the episode with two more points. So the first point will be if somebody wants to reach out and connect, where can they find you? And the last thing will be, what is your message of hope and inspiration for entrepreneurs listening out there? great.
Rich Goldstein (47:18):
So in terms of connecting, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Do you wanna get in touch with us potentially to find out more about the patent sort of work with us? That's the, you go to www.goldsteinpatentlaw.com and there are you know, opportunities there to connect with my team to see if it's a match to work together. You could also check out the book that I wrote that explains patents in plain English, the ABA consumer guide to obtaining a patent. You'd find that on Amazon and message of hope and inspiration. I think it's pretty much you that you can design your life. You can choose the people that you wanna work with. You can choose where you want to live. You can choose the type of hours that you spend or the lifestyle you can choose all of it. So you could truly design the life that you that, of your choosing. it's not a matter of like, well, there are only certain opportunities you create your opportunities and you create you know, by being responsible for your life, you get to create it.
Yoni Mazor (48:27):
I think you would example with your story, how you know, you created your own, dynamic and your route. You got a little remark from a big fancy law firm with everybody would jump at that moment or that opportunity said this is actually, I'm true to myself. It's not, for me, I'm gonna my law firm right out of law school. And then you, at the, I think it's genius. What you did with the libraries really where's the source, where are all these eyes that aren't, they need patterns? Where are they laid? You realize they're in the libraries and they have distribution capabilities reached out. That's snowballed your business. Of course, you did the regular yellow pages and whatnot, but also later on, as you developed and matured, and you reignited you in 2009, kind of your law firm, what else is out there?
You know e-commerce is going, is booming. What are the, where are the eyeballs there? Boom, you put yourself, there. So you demonstrated the ability to put yourself out there, pursue new things, try new things. And then it led to great, you know, success on your part. So, example what you, advocated with your message of hope and inspirational inspiration. So thank you so much for that. All right, buddy. So I hope you all enjoyed you know, looking forward to, the next episode, stay safe and healthy the next time.
Rich Goldstein (49:47):
Thank you. Okay.